Since the Early Access for Solasta the question of whether one should use a Rogue or a Lowlife Ranger as their party thief has come up numerous times. The short of it is that both are perfectly viable on most difficulty settings, with the Rogue being a bit better at skill checks (including crafting, if you use the Academic background), while the Ranger will deal a bit more damage.
Solasta is primarily combat, however, so one could argue that this means the Ranger is the superior option and there is admittedly some truth to that, though I would recommend people pick whichever they think will be the most fun to play with. Unfortunately for me, I like both classes, so I might just have to run the numbers anyway.
TL;DR
The Ranger will consistently deal more damage than a Rogue at most points in the game, if that is what you think should decide whether or not a Lowlife Ranger makes for a better thief character than a Rogue.
What builds, levels and why?
We’ll be looking at lvl 2, 3, 5, 7 and 9. For the most part we will assume simple stats and equipment, but I’ll include a comparison using actual Solasta equipment to show much more that the game favors Rangers in combat.
I will mostly look at dexterity based builds that dual wield, seeing as this is the most probable builds in my mind when the choice is between Rogue and Ranger for party thief.
The Ranger is barely a class at lvl 1 and the game ends its tutorial with you reaching lvl 2, so I’ll begin there.
No accuracy
Because the characters would have the same accuracy in each of these comparisons, I won’t adjust the damage for accuracy.
Edit: Accuracy comparisons: https://forums.solasta-game.com/replies/10520
Hunter v Shadowcaster
I will assume a Hunter Ranger with Colossus Slayer going up against a Shadowcaster Rogue. A Marksman Ranger can reduce their damage by 4.5 from lvl 3 onwards compared to the Hunter, while Shadow Tamer can replace the 4.5 with anything from +2 to +12 depending on when and what you are fighting.
This is not to say you should only play a Hunter with Colossus Slayer, but it is a good baseline for comparison.
I’ll use the Shadowcaster Rogue because it seems like the overall best Rogue in Solasta, but if you want to use Darkweaver instead, add 7 poison damage at lvl 9. Just keep in mind that poison is commonly resisted and the DC is quite low, making it very unreliable.
Ranger damage calculations
Dual wielding Rangers are a touch more complicated to calculate than it might seem at first glance because Hunter’s Mark uses your bonus action. In the interest of that, I’ll include 3 values for DW Ranger: 1) set up round, 2) ideal round and 3) no magic.
1) The set up round is the round where you use your bonus action to activate Hunter’s Mark.
2) The ideal round is a round where you’re attacking a creature that already has Hunter’s Mark active on them.
3) The no spell round is when you don’t want to, or can’t, use magic to boost your damage.
Rangers who primarily use a bow or sword’n’shield do not need to differentiate 1) and 2), since they rarely use their bonus action.
I won't account for Favored Enemy, though picking Undead and either Elementals or Monstrocities will significantly increase their damage over the course of the story. The simple truth is that the Ranger doesn't even really need it. FE can add anything from +1 to +12 damage per round.
Rogue calculations
I will assume Sneak Attack and off-hand attacks every round, even though this won’t be reflected in practice.
Calculation setups
The formulae will usually follow this format:
(weapon damage dice) + (ability score and enchantment modifier) + (sneak attack / hunter’s mark) + (colossus slayer)
Each step will be consolidated, so if a Rogue attacks with 2 shortswords the weapon damage dice will be summed up as 2d6, instead of 1d6 twice.
Dual Wielding Builds
Level 2
Rogue
16 dex
2x shortswords (1d6)
1d6 sneak attack
Rogues do not get any fighting style, so they only get their dexterity bonus to their mainhand attack.
2d6 + 3 + 1d6 = 13.5
Ranger
16 dex
2x shortswords (1d6)
Two-weapon style
Hunter’s Mark
1) 1d6 + 3 + 1d6 = 10
2) 2d6 + 6 + 2d6 = 20
3) 2d6 + 6 = 13
Conclusion
At lvl 2, the Rogue is 0.5 damage ahead if the Ranger does not use Hunter’s Mark, but falls behind quickly if the Ranger gets 2 rounds worth of attacks on a target.
Level 3
Rogue
16 dex
2x shortswords (1d6)
2d6 sneak attack
Ranger
16 dex
2x shortswords (1d6)
Two-weapon style
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer (1d8)
Conclusion
These calculations would be identical to the lvl 2 ones, except for the added 1d6 to Rogues and 1d8 to Rangers. This means adding 3.5 damage to Rogues and 4.5 to Rangers.
Rogue: 17
Ranger:
1) 14.5
2) 24.5
3) 17.5
Level 5
This is where most classes get a major bump in power and Rangers are definitely among them. By now you will likely have +1 weapons and 18 (+4) in your primary stat, so that is the assumption we are working with for both classes.
Rogue
18 dex
2x +1 shortswords (1d6+1)
3d6 sneak attack
2d6 + 6 + 3d6 = 23.5
Ranger
18 dex
2x +1 shortswords (1d6+1)
Two-weapon style
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer (1d8)
Multiattack
1) 2d6 + 10 + 1d8 + 2d6 = 28.5
2) 3d6 + 15 + 1d8 + 3d6 = 40.5
3) 3d6 + 15 + 1d8 = 30
Conclusion
At level 5, the Ranger is the clear winner for damage thanks to multiattack. Even when not using Hunter’s Mark, they do ~30% more damage.
Level 7
Rogue
18 dex
2x +1 shortswords (1d6+1)
4d6 sneak attack
Ranger
18 dex
2x +1 shortswords (1d6+1)
Two-weapon style
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer (1d8)
Multiattack
Conclusion
Rangers are at the exact same place for damage at lvl 7 as lvl 5, while the Rogues have gained another 3.5 damage for a total of 27, meaning the Rangers are still ahead.
Level 9
At this level we expect the character to have 20 in their primary stat, giving them a +5 modifier.
Rogue
20 dex
2x +1 shortswords (1d6+1)
5d6 sneak attack
2d6 + 7 + 5d6 = 31,5
Ranger
20 dex
2x +1 shortswords (1d6+1)
Two-weapon style
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer (1d8)
Multiattack
1) 2d6 + 12 + 1d8 + 2d6 = 30,5
2) 3d6 + 18 + 1d8 + 3d6 = 43.5
3) 3d6 + 18 + 1d8 = 33
Conclusion
At this level, the Rogue can roughly keep up with a Ranger who is setting up or not using Hunter’s Mark, but quickly fall behind when the Ranger has Hunter’s Mark in play.
A more accurate comparison
So far the comparison has been based on very basic stats and equipment, which is not reflective of what you’re capable of doing in Solasta. So let’s take the Rogue and Ranger and give them weapons they might have in the endgame. Specifically a pair of Lightbringer Shortswords, even though these are not actually the best 1-handed weapons available. Stronger melee weapons (usable with the Ambidextrous feat) will favor the Ranger even more.
Let’s see how this changes things at lvl 9:
Rogue
20 dex
2x Lightbringer shortswords (+1d8 radiant)
5d6 sneak attack
2d6 + 7 + 5d6 + 2d8 = 40,5
Ranger
20 dex
2x Lightbringer shortswords (+1d8 radiant)
Two-weapon style
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer (1d8)
Multiattack
1) 2d6 + 12 + 1d8 + 2d6 + 2d8 = 39,5
2) 3d6 + 18 + 1d8 + 3d6 + 3d8 = 57
3) 3d6 + 18 + 1d8 + 3d8 = 46.5
Conclusion
The simple truth is so: Rogues cannot really compete for damage with Rangers the first 10 levels of the game, only being about on par with a Ranger who isn’t using its magic by lvl 9. Magical equipment skev in the Ranger’s favor, as two-weapon style and multiattack utilize them better.
Ranger’s also have the benefit of ramping up their damage earlier, getting most of their hitting power at level 5, as opposed to having to wait until level 9.
Archery
You will likely either focus on being an archer or use it alongside dual wielding as a Ranger or Rogue. In the interest of that, here is the damage calculations for archery.
Because there is no competition for the Ranger’s bonus action when using archery and it is easier to maintain concentration when at range, I will assume the Ranger is attempting to use Hunter’s Mark on every enemy.
Level 2
Rogue
16 dex
Shortbow (1d6)
1d6 sneak attack
1d6 + 3 + 1d6 = 10
Ranger
16 dex
Longbow (1d8)
Hunter’s Mark
1d8 + 3 + 1d6 = 11
Level 3
Rogue
16 dex
Shortbow (1d6)
2d6 sneak attack
1d6 + 3 + 2d6 = 13,5
Ranger
16 dex
Longbow (1d8)
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer (1d8)
1d8 + 3 + 1d8 + 1d6 = 15,5
Level 5
Rogue
18 dex
Shortbow +1 (1d6+1)
3d6 sneak attack
1d6 + 5 + 3d6 = 19
Ranger
18 dex
Longbow +1 (1d8+1)
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer (1d8)
Multiattack
2d8 + 10 + 1d8 + 2d6 = 30.5
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
Continued from above post.
Level 7
Rogue
18 dex
Shortbow +1 (1d6+1)
4d6 sneak attack
1d6 + 5 + 4d6 = 22,5
Ranger
18 dex
Longbow +1 (1d8+1)
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer (1d8)
Multiattack
2d8 + 10 + 1d8 + 2d6 = 30.5
Level 9
Rogue
20 dex
Shortbow +1 (1d6+1)
5d6 sneak attack
1d6 + 6 + 5d6 = 27
Ranger
20 dex
Longbow +1 (1d8+1)
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer (1d8)
Multiattack
2d8 + 12 + 1d8 + 2d6 = 32.5
Conclusion
As long as the Ranger has access to Hunter’s Mark, it will do more damage than Rogues from lvl 2-10 with archery as well, though it won’t be as strong as dual wielding at these levels potentially is.
Dueling style
How does a sword’n’board Ranger compare to a Rogue? Like with archery, there is nothing else for the Ranger to use their bonus action on, so they will try to use Hunter’s Mark on every enemy.
Level 2
Rogue
16 dex
2x shortswords (1d6)
1d6 sneak attack
Rogues do not get any fighting style, so they only get their dexterity bonus to their mainhand attack.
2d6 + 3 + 1d6 = 13.5
Ranger
16 dex
Rapier (1d8)
Dueling style
Hunter’s Mark
1d8 + 5 + 1d6 = 13
Level 3
Rogue
16 dex
2x shortswords (1d6)
2d6 sneak attack
Rogues do not get any fighting style, so they only get their dexterity bonus to their mainhand attack.
2d6 + 3 + 2d6 = 17
Ranger
16 dex
Rapier (1d8)
Dueling style
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer
1d8 + 5 + 1d6 + 1d8 = 17.5
Level 5
Rogue
18 dex
2x shortswords+1 (1d6+1)
3d6 sneak attack
Rogues do not get any fighting style, so they only get their dexterity bonus to their mainhand attack.
2d6 + 6 + 3d6 = 23.5
Ranger
18 dex
Rapier +1 (1d8+1)
Dueling style
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer
Multiattack
2d8 + 14 + 2d6 + 1d8 = 34.5
Level 7
Rogue
18 dex
2x shortswords+1 (1d6+1)
4d6 sneak attack
Rogues do not get any fighting style, so they only get their dexterity bonus to their mainhand attack.
2d6 + 6 + 4d6 = 27
Ranger
18 dex
Rapier +1 (1d8+1)
Dueling style
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer
Multiattack
2d8 + 14 + 2d6 + 1d8 = 34.5
Level 9
Rogue
20 dex
2x shortswords+1 (1d6+1)
5d6 sneak attack
Rogues do not get any fighting style, so they only get their dexterity bonus to their mainhand attack.
2d6 + 7 + 4d6 = 31.5
Ranger
20 dex
Rapier +1 (1d8+1)
Dueling style
Hunter’s Mark
Colossus Slayer
Multiattack
2d8 + 16 + 2d6 + 1d8 = 36.5
Beyond the Damage
But what about what each class brings to the table outside of dealing damage? This primarily comes from Expertise and spellcasting.
Expertise
This is an amazing mechanic… in tabletop. Solasta is a combat focused game and there is not that much value to Expertise when all is said and done. For the most part, it is used for lockpicking, stealth and shoving. All of which are, unfortunately, easily replaced. It can also be used to succeed dialogue checks, but those aren’t very important in the grand scheme of things. Solasta is very linear and few things change depending on those rolls.
Most chests aren’t so hard that you need Expertise and the ones who are can easily be unlocked by a Wizard with Knock. Lowlife Rangers can also pick up the Lock Breaker feat, which doesn’t really impact their ability to deal damage all that much.
Pass Without Trace is a spell that gives up to 6 characters a +10 bonus to Stealth that stacks with proficiency. Given the level ranges we have, proficiency maxes out at +4, meaning Expertise is +8. This means Pass Without Trace offers a larger bonus than Expertise and does so to the whole party, including temporary members. Rangers and Greenmages get access to this spell.
It is also worth keeping in mind that Rangers get a feature at lvl 10 that improves their stealth: Hide in Plain Sight. Once per rest/area, you can activate HiPS for a semi-permanent +10 to Stealth as long as you are next to a wall or similar. Between 20 Dex, proficiency, Pass Without Trace and HiPS, a lvl 10 Ranger can have a +29 modifier to their Stealth rolls, which makes it nearly impossible to lose stealth short of being in a creature's direct line of sight.
A Rogue with Expertise in Athletics and wearing a strength belt can use Shove with a very high chance of success, no doubt. Perhaps even better than even a Mountaineer Fighter. But the Rogue can also only Shove once per turn and has to give up their attack to do so. Rangers, Fighters and Paladins can combine Shoving and attacking. Mountaineers can even Shove as a bonus action later on. So if you want to have a shoving master, Mountaineers are arguably better.
Magic
Rangers and Shadowcasters get access to magic, which can augment their abilities somewhat drastically.
Rogue
Shadowcasters get some utility and crowd control, but their most valuable spells will be the ones who increase their defenses. Rogues have a d8 hit dice and light armor, meaning they need a lot more tools to survive than the medium armored d10 Ranger.
Spells of note:
Cantrips:
Most of the cantrips aren’t that great for Shadowcasters.
1st lvl:
Shield - An awesome reaction ability, though somewhat diminished since it competes with Uncanny Dodge.
Protection from Evil and Good - Lets you impose near permanent disadvantage on a number of enemies. Undead and Elementals are common.
2nd lvl:
Blur - Same as Protection, just less limited.
Invisibility - Obvious benefits.
Ranger
Rangers get their spells at lvl 2 as opposed to lvl 3, mainly focusing on utility and damage.
Spells of note:
1st lvl:
Hunter’s Mark - This is a great damage spell, with great value. A single spellslot can last you an entire dungeon if you’re lucky. Every Ranger should have this.
Goodberry - Opt out of having to bring rations and works as decent out of combat healing, having 10 guaranteed points as opposed to 1d8+wisdom.
Jump - Useful for reaching certain chests early on with guaranteed magical items.
Longstrider - Gotta go fast!
Cure Wounds - Having just a bit more healing in a fight can be useful.
2nd lvl:
Pass WIthout Trace - Already covered under Expertise. It’s great.
Silence - Shut down spellcasters, including your own. Very powerful when used right.
Lesser Restoration - Cure a status effect.
Protection from Poison - Situationally useful.
3rd lvl:
Conjure Animal - Having 2 dire wolves running around helps manipulate the action economy in your favor.
Protection from Energy - Gain resistance to fire, frost, shock, thunder or acid.
Wind Wall - inflicts damage and stops projectiles.
Conclusion
I would say that the Ranger generally comes out a bit ahead with their magic, but not in all circumstances. Multiattack Defense makes up for not getting Shield (most of the time), but it is hard to substitute Protection from Evil and Good.
That being said, they have more spellslots and spells that can change the trajectory of a fight inn ways a Shadowcaster just can’t, with Pass Without Trace, Silence and Conjure Animal.
Final thoughts
I love Rogues in 5e, but they are at their best when they are engaged heavily both in and out of combat. Solasta is 90% combat, 8% exploration and 2% social interactions, which is a distribution that heavily favors the Ranger.
Overall, people are probably right when they say that a Lowlife Ranger is the better party thief, but I’ve taken Rogues through the game as they are a viable class if you prefer them.
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
I cannot believe the amount of work and study you put into that.
That was ungodly comprehensive!
I cannot believe the amount of work and study you put into that.
That was ungodly comprehensive!
I can't believe it either... But that's the cost of wanting to make a thread with "the Ultimate" in the title!
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
i SEE WHAT YOU MEAN.
I rolled up a dual wield Ranger and he is BAD!
It's more about party composition for me. Dwarf Shadow Caster with Heavy Crossbow is nice for 1d10 base damage plus sneak which I usually pair with Sorcerer since they don't have the Identify spell (SC can cast Identify). I tend to pair Ranger with Wizard.
I do not like the Sorcerer. He is weak, can't pull his own weight.
lowlife battle cleric
LEVEL 3: 16 dex
2x shortswords (1d6): 2(3.5)+3 = 10
+ spiritual weapon: + 4.5+2 = 16.5
lv5: 18 dex +1 weapon
2x shortswords (1d6): 2(3.5)+4+1 = 12
+ spiritual weapon: + 4.5+3 = 17.5
+ spiritual guardians: + 3(4.5) = 31 [23.5 if save]
or upcast spiritual weapon: + 4.5 = 35.5 [28 if save]
lv7: 18 dex +1 weapon +1 battle herald
2x shortswords (1d6): 2(3.5)+4+1 = 13
+ spiritual weapon: + 4.5+3 = 18.5
+ spiritual guardians: + 3(4.5) = 32 [24.5 if save]
or upcast spiritual weapon: + 2(4.5) = 41 [33.5 if save]
+ upcast spiritual guardians: + 4.5 = 45.5 [38.5 if save]
vs rangers max of 40.5
lv9: 20 dex +1 weapon +1 battle herald
2x shortswords (1d6): 3(3.5)+5+1 = 16.5
+ spiritual weapon: + 4.5+4 = 25
+ spiritual guardians: + 3(4.5) = 38.5 [31 if save]
or upcast spiritual weapon: + 3(4.5) = 47.5 [40 if save]
+ upcast spiritual guardians: + 2(4.5) = 56.5 [44.5 if save]
vs rangers max of 43.5
plus clerics are full casters and a battle cleric have more HP [at lv 6] and will have a jump in power at lv 8
yellow flower of courage
You can't use Spirit Weapon and two weapon fighting at the same time. Both use your bonus action.
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
It's more about party composition for me. Dwarf Shadow Caster with Heavy Crossbow is nice for 1d10 base damage plus sneak which I usually pair with Sorcerer since they don't have the Identify spell (SC can cast Identify). I tend to pair Ranger with Wizard.
Rogues are fine as a class and I enjoy them a lot. But there's unfortunately no getting around the numbers in a system as combat focused as Solasta, especially in T1 and 2.
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
You can't use Spirit Weapon and two weapon fighting at the same time. Both use your bonus action.
good point thanks for the catch, i pulled my back moving tables around to setup my classroom so i'm a bit loopy on muscle relaxers, replace with greatsword and it will be same, except at 8th level add +3.5 to everything so
lv9: 20 dex +1 weapon +1 battle herald
greatsword (4d6): 4(3.5)+5+1 = 20
+ spiritual weapon: + 4.5+4 = 29.5
+ spiritual guardians: + 3(4.5) = 43 [35.5 if save]
or upcast spiritual weapon: + 3(4.5) = 51 [43.5 if save]
+ upcast spiritual guardians: + 2(4.5) = 60 [48 if save]
vs rangers max of 43.5
yellow flower of courage
You can't use Spirit Weapon and two weapon fighting at the same time. Both use your bonus action.
good point thanks for the catch, i pulled my back moving tables around to setup my classroom so i'm a bit loopy on muscle relaxers, replace with greatsword and it will be same, except at 8th level add +3.5 to everything so
lv9: 20 dex +1 weapon +1 battle herald
greatsword (4d6): 4(3.5)+5+1 = 20
+ spiritual weapon: + 4.5+4 = 29.5
+ spiritual guardians: + 3(4.5) = 43 [35.5 if save]
or upcast spiritual weapon: + 3(4.5) = 51 [43.5 if save]
+ upcast spiritual guardians: + 2(4.5) = 60 [48 if save]
vs rangers max of 43.5
I don't think anyone ever argued that a Cleric spending a 2nd lvl spellslot and a 3rd lvl spell slot will do more damage than a Ranger who uses one 1st lvl spellslot. In normal tabletop this is balanced as long as the DM gives out enough encounters per long rest, because Clerics (and Wizards etc) will quickly run out of power if they wish to outdo the martial classes in every fight.
In Solasta, however, we have resting areas so frequently that can be used freely, so there is little to no drawback to going all out and resting after in every fight. This changes the intended class balance somewhat drastically.
D&D 4th Edition looks like a clunky system with too many things to keep track of for a tabletop experience (at least without a very particular set of players), but their usage of At-Will, Encounter and Daily powers for every class does lend itself to a more balanced system. Would be nice to try a CRPG based on 4th Edition rules (Neverwinter Online doesn't count, being an MMO).
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
Yeah about the magic users running out of spells....I have learned to craft scrolls.
Magic Missle, Ltn Bolt and Fireball.
About Spiritual Guardians, my Ranger carries Wardenblade in one hand and Frostburnin the other.
And his bow is Lightbringer, firing flaming arrows.
You can't use Spirit Weapon and two weapon fighting at the same time. Both use your bonus action.
good point thanks for the catch, i pulled my back moving tables around to setup my classroom so i'm a bit loopy on muscle relaxers, replace with greatsword and it will be same, except at 8th level add +3.5 to everything so
lv9: 20 dex +1 weapon +1 battle herald
greatsword (4d6): 4(3.5)+5+1 = 20
+ spiritual weapon: + 4.5+4 = 29.5
+ spiritual guardians: + 3(4.5) = 43 [35.5 if save]
or upcast spiritual weapon: + 3(4.5) = 51 [43.5 if save]
+ upcast spiritual guardians: + 2(4.5) = 60 [48 if save]
vs rangers max of 43.5
*Note: All of these numbers are assuming ideal conditions, because this is all whiteroom theorycrafting.
Seeing as we're doing more math, how about we run one for a Shadow Tamer fighting their Favored Enemy at lvl 9? That's +4 from Dark Slayer and +4 from Favored Enemy, per hit. Again we're looking at 20 dex, 2x +1 shortswords and Hunter's Mark.
1) 2d6 + 12 + 2d6 + 8 + 8 = 42
2) 3d6 + 18 + 3d6 + 12 + 12 = 63
3) 3d6 + 18 + 12 + 12 = 52.5
Now we can add on Lightbringer shortswords, just for fun:
1) 2d6 + 12 + 2d6 + 8 + 8 + 2d8 =51
2) 3d6 + 18 + 3d6 + 12 + 12 + 3d8 = 76.5
3) 3d6 + 18 + 12 + 12 + 3d8 = 57
And, since we're at it, let's do Black Viper/Dragonblade/Punisher too. These are the god-tier weapons. They all do 1d8 + 2d6 damage and have a +1 enchantment. Now we're assuming 20 Str instead of Dex though, which is easily done with a Belt of Hill Giant Strength.
1) 2d8 + 12 + 2d6 + 8 + 8 + 4d6 = 58
2) 3d8 + 18 + 3d6 + 12 + 12 + 6d6 = 87
3) 3d8 + 18 + 12 + 12 + 6d6 = 76,5
Let's assume a pure Dex build or you can only give 1 of the god-tier weapons to the Shadow Tamer, so we have Black Viper + Lightbringer shortsword and we get either Dark Slayer or Favored Enemy, never both. This is arguably more realistic for a single character in a party. This is the build we will compare to Battle Clerics down below.
1) 2d8 + 12 + 2d6 + 8 + 4d6 = 50
2) 2d8 + 1d6 + 18 + 3d6 + 12 + 4d6 + 1d8 = 71.5
3) 2d8 + 1d6 + 18 + 12 + 4d6 + 1d8 = 61
Compare to Battle Clerics using the Lightbringer Greatsword (or one of the god-tier 1-handed weapons with a shield), which is the damage you calculated + another 9 radiant from the enchantment. Which maxes out at 69 damage if the enemy fails their saves (probably a bit more in practice, since Spirit Guardians is AoE). Funnily enough, Clerics won't be that far ahead of Shadow Tamer Rangers in the endgame in terms of single target damage and they have to expend a lot more resources to get there.
We also have to consider the setup for a Battle Cleric compared to the Shadow Tamer, who only needs 1 round to put up Hunter's Mark. Clerics will need eitehr 1 or 2 rounds, depending on whether or not Spirit Guardians is already up. Since you can only cast 1 full spell per turn, Guardians and Weapon must be set up separately. Let's look at the possibilities:
Full setup needed:
T1: Spirit Guardians + no attacks
T2: 2x Lightbringer greatsword attacks + settup for Spiritual Weapon + Guardians dmg
T3: Full damage potential.
T1: 3d8 = 13,5
T2: 3d8 + 12 + 4d6 + 2d8 = 48.5
T3: 3d8 + 12 + 4d6 + 2d8 + 1d8 + 4 = 58
And upcasted spells:
T1: 5d8 = 22.5
T2: 5d8 + 12 + 4d6 + 2d8 = 57.5
T3: 5d8 + 12 + 4d6 + 2d8 + 2d8 + 4 = 71.5
Over the course of 3 turns, a Battle Cleric that has to set up can do 151.5 damage with the Lightbringer Greatsword or a god-tier 1handed. A Shadow Tamer using Black Viper and Lightbringer shortsword, without using any spells and getting either Dark Slayer or Favored Enemy, will do 183.
But let's look at a Battle Cleric that can precast Spiritual Guardians, using the bonus action to cast Spiritual Weapon turn 1.
T1: 3d8 + 12 + 4d6 + 2d8 = 48.5
T2: 3d8 + 12 + 4d6 + 2d8 + 1d8 + 4 = 58
T3: 3d8 + 12 + 4d6 + 2d8 + 1d8 + 4 = 58
And upcast:
T1: 5d8 + 12 + 4d6 + 2d8 = 57.5
T2: 5d8 + 12 + 4d6 + 2d8 + 2d8 + 4 = 71.5
T3: 5d8 + 12 + 4d6 + 2d8 + 2d8 + 4 = 71.5
The Battle Cleric will do 164.5 over 3 turns without upcasting and 200,5 with upcasting. A Shadow Tamer will have a potential damage of 193 by spending a single 1st lvl spellslot. And they still reliably do 183 in 3 turns without Hunter's Mark. If they get both Dark Slayer and Favored Enemy while wielding 2 god-tier weapons, they can reach 229.5 damage over 3 turns without Hunter's Mark. 193.5 if they get Dark Slayer or Favored Enemy, but not both. Shadow Tamers are likely to trigger Dark Slayer or Favored Enemy against most enemies from lvl 6 or so onwards.
If the Battle Cleric precasts both Guardians and Weapon, they can rach a max of 214.5 over 3 turns. 217.5 if the +4 is supposed to be a +5.
Battle Clerics are great, but Rangers, especially Shadow Tamers, seem to give them one heck of a run for their money when it comes to sustained damage when we account for the items in Solasta. Later on, it is rarely worth even using Hunter's Mark because you'd lose damage from having to reapply it to a new target all the time instead of just using your offhand attack.
So are Battle Clerics better? In ideal situations, yes. But being better is very taxing on the spellslots compared to what a Shadow Tamer has to deal with and a bad Concentration roll can ruin the Cleric's chances to keep up.
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
Additional point:
A lvl 9 Shadow Tamer with 20 dex and +1 shortswords, assuming either Dark Slayer or Favored Enemy.
1): 2d6 + 12 + 2d6 + 8 = 34
2): 3d6 + 18 + 3d6 + 12 = 51
3): 3d6 + 18 + 12 = 40.5
Pretty good for little to no resource usage.
Part 2 to the damage numbers between Rogue and Ranger is coming, where I calculate some accuracy. It's just been impossible to get the time to do that particular stunt until now. Rogue are a bit better than they look in the opening posts of this thread, but Rangers are still overall better in Solasta.
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
The Ultimate Ranger V Rogue Thread part 2 - Accuracy
Here I will redo the numbers between a dex based dual wielding Ranger and Rogue where I account for the accuracy, still using lvl 2, 3, 5, 7 and 9.
D&D 5e seems to be balanced around the assumption that each attack has ~65% accuracy, so that is the number I will be working with. If I had more time, I could set up numbers for a wider array of accuracy, but that won’t happen just yet. Maybe never.
Why measure accuracy?
For a lot of classes, there isn’t a need to compare accuracy if both characters have the same chance to hit, since it would just be 65% of the average numbers anyway. Rogues, however, aren’t so simple to calculate because of Sneak Attack.
Sneak Attack can be triggered with either the main attack or the off-hand attack, meaning that you effectively have advantage on getting it each round as a dual wielding Rogue. That means that Sneak Attack has to be calculated at 87.7% (for a base 65%, of course) and the numbers quickly get a bit different than you might expect.
Sneak Attack progression:
1d6 = 3,0695
2d6 = 6,139
3d6 = 9,2085
4d6 = 12,278
5d6 = 15,3475
6d6 = 18, 417
7d6 = 21,4865
8d6 = 24,556
9d6 = 27,6255
10d6 = 30,695
The Hunter’s ability Colossus Slayer also works similarly, having 3 values to keep in mind:
1 chance to trigger: 2.925
2 chances to trigger: 3.9465
3 chances to trigger: 4.307
Everything other than Sneak Attack and Colossus Slayer should be easily enough to calculate at a 65% hit rate.
As before, for Rangers:
1) Setup turn. Bonus action goes to Hunter's Mark.
2) All three attacks against a marked target.
3) No Hunter's Mark.
Let’s get to it!
We’re using the same basic progression as before.
Level 2
Rogue
16 dex
2x shortswords
1d6 Sneak Attack
(2d6 + 3)*0.65 + 2.925 = 9,425
Ranger
16 dex
2x shortswords
Two-weapon style
Hunter’s Mark
1) (1d6 + 3 + 1d6)*0.65 = 6.5
2) (2d6 + 6 + 2d6)*0.65 = 13
3) (2d6 + 6)*0.65 = 8.45
Level 3
Rogue
16 dex
2x shortswords
2d6 Sneak Attack
(2d6 + 3)*0.65 + 6,139 = 12,639
Ranger
16 dex
2x shortswords
Two-weapon style
Colossus Slayer
Hunter’s Mark
1) (1d6 + 3 + 1d6)*0.65 + 2.925 = 9,425
2) (2d6 + 6 + 2d6)*0.65 + 3.9465 = 16.9465
3) (2d6 + 6)*0.65 + 3.9465 = 12,3965
Level 5
Rogue
18 dex
2x shortswords +1
3d6 Sneak Attack
(2d6 + 6)*0.65 + 9,2085 = 17,6585
Ranger
18 dex
2x shortswords +1
Two-weapon style
Multiattack
Colossus Slayer
Hunter’s Mark
1) (2d6 + 10 + 2d6)*0.65 + 3.9465 = 19,5465
2) (3d6 + 15 + 3d6)*0.65 + 4.307 = 27,707
3) (3d6 + 15)*0.65 + 4.307 = 20,882
Level 7
Rogue
18 dex
2x shortswords +1
4d6 Sneak Attack
(2d6 + 6)*0.65 + 12,278 = 20,728
Ranger
18 dex
2x shortswords +1
Two-weapon style
Multiattack
Colossus Slayer
Hunter’s Mark
1) (2d6 + 10 + 2d6)*0.65 + 3.9465 = 19,5465
2) (3d6 + 15 + 3d6)*0.65 + 4.307 = 27,707
3) (3d6 + 15)*0.65 + 4.307 = 20,882
Level 9
Rogue
20 dex
2x shortswords +1
5d6 Sneak Attack
(2d6 + 7)*0.65 + 15,3475 = 24,4475
Ranger
20 dex
2x shortswords +1
Two-weapon style
Multiattack
Colossus Slayer
Hunter’s Mark
1) (2d6 + 12 + 2d6)*0.65 + 3.9465 = 20,8465
2) (3d6 + 18 + 3d6)*0.65 + 4.307 = 29,657
3) (3d6 + 18)*0.65 + 4.307 = 22,832
Endgame Weapons
Let’s just plot in the bonus damage some endgame weapons will add to the two classes. We’re just going to assume lvl 9, 20 dex etc.
Double Lightbringer
Rogue
(2d6 + 7 + 2d8)*0.65 + 15,3475 = 30,2975
Ranger
1) (2d6 + 12 + 2d6 + 2d8)*0.65 + 3.9465 = 26,6965
2) (3d6 + 18 + 3d6 + 3d8)*0.65 + 4.307 = 38,432
3) (3d6 + 18 + 3d8)*0.65 + 4.307 = 31,607
Black Viper + Lightbringer
Rogue
(2d8 + 7 + 3d6)*0.65 + 15,3475 = 32,5725
Ranger
1) (2d8 + 12 + 6d6)*0,65 + 3.9465 = 31,2465
2) (3d8 + 18 + 8d6)*0,65 + 4,307 = 42,982
3) (3d8 + 18 + 6d6)*0,65 + 4,307 = 38,432
Conclusion
Sneak Attack scales better with levels than Ranger does, given its unique circumstances, but it isn’t enough to overcome the damage a Colossus Slayer Ranger using Hunter’s Mark is capable of… if they can stay on target. Which is a bit more complicated than it sounds, for a couple of reasons.
The first one is obvious: Any time a target dies (and they will), you’re back to either doing 1) or 3) levels of damage per turn. The other one is when you lose Concentration, which is also likely since you don’t have proficiency with Constitution saves.
So, with basic weapons, Rogues are arguably about the same as Hunter Rangers, though they fall behind when you get the best weapons in the game and when accounting for Favored Enemy and Dark Slayer.
Typos happen. More so on the phone.