Remaining hidden after an attack, is it correct?

Redglyph
Level 14
4 months ago

I'm wondering whether it's correct or significantly adapted for the fun factor (but it's not in the differences vs 5E).

What I observe when my characters enter combat in stealth mode, so when they're hidden:

a) When they attack and hit someone, they then immediately roll a DEX(Stealth), against a DC which is not explained when hovering with the mouse, unfortunately. Is it WIS(Perception)? It didn't compute when I checked.

If the roll succeeds, they remain hidden.

b) If the attack misses, they don't roll and remain hidden.

c) The rogue can use the cunning action to hide again, provided he/she's out of sight.


My understanding of the rules may be wrong, but I thought that

- any attack, hit or miss, reveals the location to the enemy, hence the character is not hidden anymore => not what I observed in (b)

- hide is an action, so it would require another action to hide again with a roll DEX(Stealth) => not what I observed in (a), this is done after another attack action, and before the next turn, and by a non-rogue, so it's "free"

- this action would require the character to be out of sight => not what I observed in (a)

The c) part is how I understand it should work for rogues.


I heard the devs talk about stealth and how it was adapted, for example with visual clues when moving around. But this is outside of combat, or in any case, before detection.


4 months ago

I'm not sure what game you're playing, but my characters take a role when they miss.  I have noticed that if you are at the maximum range, or if you're on significantly higher ground, you SOMETIMES don't have the check after an attack.  So far it seems to mostly be when you're attacking the Soraks.  I'll sometimes start a fight and surprise the enemy, and my shooter will fail the check, but if I re-load the game will start before I've given the order to shoot, so I can move them to the maximum range and start the attack again and don' have to do a check.

Redglyph
Level 14
4 months ago (edited)

I'm not sure what game you're playing, but my characters take a role when they miss.  I have noticed that if you are at the maximum range, or if you're on significantly higher ground, you SOMETIMES don't have the check after an attack.  So far it seems to mostly be when you're attacking the Soraks.  I'll sometimes start a fight and surprise the enemy, and my shooter will fail the check, but if I re-load the game will start before I've given the order to shoot, so I can move them to the maximum range and start the attack again and don' have to do a check.

I'm playing Solasta and referring to the SRD, what do you mean? And what do you mean by "take a role"? Which checks are you mentioning, stealth roll checks, attack rolls check? Be more precise.

Are you familiar with the ruleset? It's a question about that. I'm afraid you're not helping.

mrfuji3
Level 7
4 months ago

a.) I assume the DC is based on the enemy's passive perception: a flat DC plus their perception modifier

RAW you are correct. Creatures should automatically be detected after making an attack, hit or miss. Then it would take another Hide Action (with a stealth roll against the enemy's passive perception) to become hidden again.

If you are in direct line-of-sight with an enemy, RAW you should not be able to hide. Unless of course you have some ability that let's you do so (e.g., some halflings can hide behind Medium-sized creatures)

Redglyph
Level 14
4 months ago

a.) I assume the DC is based on the enemy's passive perception: a flat DC plus their perception modifier

The DC didn't match the enemy's WIS but to be honest I should do a thorough test to confirm. Perhaps it's the enemy with the highest perception. It would be nice if a tooltip gave the details :-)

RAW you are correct. Creatures should automatically be detected after making an attack, hit or miss. Then it would take another Hide Action (with a stealth roll against the enemy's passive perception) to become hidden again.

If you are in direct line-of-sight with an enemy, RAW you should not be able to hide. Unless of course you have some ability that let's you do so (e.g., some halflings can hide behind Medium-sized creatures)

Thanks for your input! Of course the question is: are we better off with Solasta's implementation? It's not ruining the experience IMHO but that's probably subjective. I wouldn't mind a RAW option either - especially if enemies can benefit from the "stay hidden" custom rule too, hehe. 

I'm sure Tactical Adventures thought about it but we'll see if they give some feedback when they have the chance (must be quite the rush right now).

IXI
Level 14
4 months ago

a.) I assume the DC is based on the enemy's passive perception: a flat DC plus their perception modifier

if that is the case they have a crazy high PP, i was failing my checks with rolls of 19


yellow flower of courage

IXI
Level 14
4 months ago

I'm wondering whether it's correct or significantly adapted for the fun factor (but it's not in the differences vs 5E).

What I observe when my characters enter combat in stealth mode, so when they're hidden:

a) When they attack and hit someone, they then immediately roll a DEX(Stealth), against a DC which is not explained when hovering with the mouse, unfortunately. Is it WIS(Perception)? It didn't compute when I checked.

If the roll succeeds, they remain hidden.

b) If the attack misses, they don't roll and remain hidden.

c) The rogue can use the cunning action to hide again, provided he/she's out of sight.


My understanding of the rules may be wrong, but I thought that

- any attack, hit or miss, reveals the location to the enemy, hence the character is not hidden anymore => not what I observed in (b)

- hide is an action, so it would require another action to hide again with a roll DEX(Stealth) => not what I observed in (a), this is done after another attack action, and before the next turn, and by a non-rogue, so it's "free"

- this action would require the character to be out of sight => not what I observed in (a)

The c) part is how I understand it should work for rogues.

going on memory here, but i believe that is all correct.  i've noticed most people tend to really bend the rules on stealth especially with rouges.  many times at my table have players been been taken aback when their "stealth" fails them.  lots tend to believe that if they start off hidden they can step out in to the open [aka foes have line of sight] and still be hidden


yellow flower of courage

mrfuji3
Level 7
4 months ago

a.) I assume the DC is based on the enemy's passive perception: a flat DC plus their perception modifier

if that is the case they have a crazy high PP, i was failing my checks with rolls of 19

I was assuming a modified passive perception, not the technical Passive Perception of 5e = 10 + modifier. The DC is increased to offset the fact that it's possible at all to stay hidden after firing a shot.

Perhaps it's Passive Perception with advantage = 15 + modifier? That still might be too low though...

ammo
Level 6
Kickstarter Backer
4 months ago

I would love to be able to turn off "stay hidden after attack" in the game difficulty options, so that I can make it behave according to SRD rules.  Right now, my entire party can just stay hidden and shoot bows and there is no reason for them to actually engage or cast spells for the first several kills of the fight, which isn't how the table top game plays.    I get what they are doing here, making it possible to play the game as a stealth infiltration game, but it should be optional.

Heldred
Level 13
4 months ago

Agreed, great future difficulty setting (turn this off).  

The current form is very powerful and makes attacking from surprise even more potent than I recall.  

sarge33rd
Level 13
4 months ago

wearing what armor? My Rogues routinely stay hidden though not always, and Pallys seldom stay hidden, but sometimes they manage.

BOBBARKER
Level 7
4 months ago (edited)

This post has been deleted.

4 months ago

I'm playing Solasta and referring to the SRD, what do you mean? 

It was a joke.  My point was that there is a stealth check when they both hit and miss.  You are incorrect that there isn't one if they miss.

And what do you mean by "take a role"? 

Roll the dice to for the stealth check.

Which checks are you mentioning, stealth roll checks, attack rolls check? Be more precise.

Sorry, I thought it was obvious.

Are you familiar with the ruleset? It's a question about that. I'm afraid you're not helping.

No.  I really don't care about the ruleset.  I just want a fun game.  And this game is much more fun when my ranged attackers are able to stay hidden.  Sorry for being unhelpful.

misstray
Visitor
4 months ago

I'm in the dark castle at the moment and sneaking through. I'm definitely noticing the enemies are rolling perception against my stealth. I have pass without a trace up, and they are never detecting me which seems OP. Also it looks as if Pass Without a Trace is adding +20 instead of +10 to my stealth rolls in combat (I'm routinely getting stealth rolls in the high 30s and 40s and my party consists of a paladin, fighter, wizard and ranger). So I'm going through clearing out enemies who never even see me, which seems broken

Redglyph
Level 14
4 months ago

OK, I'll report this as a bug or a suggestion to put an option for it (or at least to list that as difference vs SRD).

Thanks for the replies! :-)