Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous

kanisatha
Level 6
3 months ago (edited)

Well, the Kickstarter campaign for the second Pathfinder game, Wrath of the Righteous, is going very well with the pledges at over $1 million from a requested $300,000 with 25 days still to go.

Owlcat just announced that they will include a TB mode option for their new game. Apparently it is something they had been working on from before the KS launch because there is very little extra work or cost involved. So, the big question for me now is why other studios, even small studios just like Owlcat, don't do the same? Is it really because they can't, or is it because they won't? Is it because the expectation is that a RTwP game MUST also have TB, but the reverse expectation doesn't apply because TB makes the game "perfect" already so why bother including RTwP? I would very much like to know.

Nortar
Level 6
Kickstarter Backer Mayor's Ring (Bronze) Weaponsmith (Bronze) Armorsmith (Diamond)
3 months ago (edited)

Well, it seems that you already know the answer. 

TB allows for a far more refined and sophisticated tactical battles experience.
This is something that is not really achievable with that semi-arcade of RTwP mode.

I even suspect that a large number (not to say "majority") of RTwP enthusiasts do not even control all their party members manually, allowing AI to take care of them. It's like playing a game of chess where you only move the Queen, a let the Rooks and the Knights to act on their own with some behavioral presets. 

But don't fret, arcade and arpg players have no reason for complaining, there are enough games for them, that is at least until they start putting TB mode in diablo-clones. :)

kanisatha
Level 6
3 months ago

@Nortar, thank you for confirming my belief that TB fans are arrogant, condescending and entitled. RTwP is what provides a sophisticated and tactically realistic experience. TB combat is fake combat that also happens to be child's play easy. Except that I don't go around throwing this personal view in the face of other people who may see things differently.

I do hope someone from TA will at least offer their thoughts on my question. For better or worse, Owlcat has now set a new standard. So I, and I imagine many other RTwP fans, will very reasonably expect that a developer of a TB game will at least sincerely TRY to provide a RTwP option if at all possible. I for one will not accept anything less in any future TB RPG.

PaquoCastor
Level 3
Kickstarter Backer
3 months ago

Ianap but it seems that real time to turn based is easier. I mean there's that "turned based" Quake mod. Not to mention balance changes and that dandy is a turned based system anyway. Also, turn based is what's currently in the mainstream within the genre. But the world is somewhat cyclical, so maybe real time will have it's day again. RTwP's heyday, however, was seemingly with BioWare. Also remember games like Arcanum that had both (no pause though) from the beginning.

I would like Solasta to succeed, but it doesn't seem like it would be cost effective to potentially rebuild 5e just for a few sourpusses this far in. I would not be opposed to it, but I think it would be a better idea for TA's next rpg.

About the game in question; I hope ratfolk get in. I plan to play the Pathfinder crpgs in real time when I get around to playing them, since they were built that way. I also plan to real time Pillars 2.

Nortar
Level 6
Kickstarter Backer Mayor's Ring (Bronze) Weaponsmith (Bronze) Armorsmith (Diamond)
3 months ago

@kanisatha 

Whoa, mate.

Your reaction makes me wonder if you’re a calculating provocateur or an oblivious hypocrite. So let's dissect your behavior in a turn-based manner.

  1. You start with a passive-aggressive attack on developers.

  2. You completely disregard humor undertone of my message. Was it too gruff or too subtle without an additional sprinkle of brackets?

  3. You call me arrogant, yet you dispense your beliefs and expectations as if someone supposed to give a damn about them.

  4. You call me condescending, yet you’re quick to climb on a high horse and start making generalizations and sticking labels.

  5. You call me entitled, yet you think you should get something you want in this game, just because players got what they wanted in some other game.

  6. You say that you won’t shove your opinion in someone's face unless asked, and yet you do exactly that, diminishing other players and their interests without a hint of jest.

So if you want to have a meaningful discussion about why games based on PnP rules are more suited for TB gameplay, stop lashing out and provide arguments supporting your opinion other than "that game got a game mode I din't need, so this game should give me a mode that I want".


Tactical Myzzrym
Level 14
Tactical Adventures Dev
Discord Link Steam Link Newsletter Link Developer Badge
3 months ago (edited)

Hey folks, let's play nice. There's no need to get overly aggressive, everyone can have their own opinion. Remember that we're not all native english speakers nor professional diplomats either, so let's not always assume the worse when reading someone else's post.

@kanisatha: Back to the topic. First of all, I'm really happy Owlcat decided to add a TB mode to their next game. However, there are three things to keep in mind:

  1. Owlcat is not a small studio by any mean. Of course, they are no Blizzard or Ubisoft - but they have a fairly sizeable and experienced crew, and already have one solid game under their belt with a sizeable community!
  2. They did specify that while they ARE adding TB mode, "our new CRPG is designed and balanced for RTWP"
  3. I don't think I agree with your statement about "very little extra work or cost involved". In their own update post, they highlight that "There is still much work to do: we took the user mod as a starting point, and then we spent a long time reconsidering the interface, and also adding some useful features"

Indeed, switching between RTWP and TB has a lot of innate issues - be it interface, balancing, animations... When the option to switch is added through Modding, it's acceptable to have something that just... kind of works, even if it's not perfect. However, if the company decides to add an official option to switch, they have to make sure it's decent - they have a reputation and a certain quality to uphold. 

This is why many companies prefer to pick one or the other, stick to it to polish their game as much as they can. Giving more options is nice, but the time spent adding that option is time spent not "improving the game" (so to speak) - instead, it's time spent to attract more people. 

Just think of it like adding localization in Italian for instance. For English speakers it won't change anything, the game doesn't suddenly get better because you added another language. So it comes down to spending money to add Italian, to hopefully get more back when the game releases in Italy. 

Except here it's much more complex, since it's something that impacts gameplay and balance, so you can't just go to an external company, drop a wad of bills and ask them to "just do it". You'll have to do that internally, so either you hire more people (more expenditure) or you divert some resource to tackle that (less time on other features).

TL;DR: I'm personally delighted that Owlcat announced an official TB option, but I think it's an important investment if they are going to do it well. That being said I hope it brings even more people to play their game, because I think they're really good and definitively worth checking out!

Wraith
Level 3
Kickstarter Backer
3 months ago

I backed Kingmaker at a fairly high level, and ended up being disappointed with the game. This was due in large part to the RTWP. I was looking for the table top felt the resulting game play wasn't that. This is just a personal opinion. Even further, they still haven't sent me my physical rewards. I feel I've been let down by them in their game, their execution of the kickstarter, and their follow through.

3 months ago

Honestly in an RtwP game there are many aspects that cannot be implemented except in a TB engine and even if you could insert all the action it would take place so quickly that I challenge any player to manage all aspects in real time.

It is clear that I do not want to criticize either approach but very often some role-playing mechanics like D&D and Pathfinder in a RtwP are sacrificed or revised because they are really difficult to implement and control. 

On the other hand, TB makes fights much slower and several players don't like this. 

The same thing applies to balancing the TB due to their purely tactical nature allow sophisticated combinations and strategies that perhaps are not manageable by an RT player so that the clashes must also be calibrated accordingly. 

I have not yet tried the mod for P:KM which transforms it into a TB, but I will try it as soon as possible and I think Owlcat is starting from this to implement the official mod for their new game of course adding all those extra features that they are used to better manage shifts. If I'm not mistaken, PoE2 has also added a TB mod to its game officially and I don't think it was so easy to port it.

As for Solasta and making a mod for RtwP I honestly do not envy the developers, I believe that if they decided this way they would have to study several mechanical changes. The first that comes to mind and that RtwP I don't know how to implement are the reactions that have been masterfully implemented in the TB version.

However TB or RtwP the important thing is the story and the choices so that the player feels immersed in the story.

kanisatha
Level 6
3 months ago

@Tactical Myzzrym, thanks for your post. I appreciate it and understand your position as the developer.

But clearly we can see here what the attitude of TB fans is, which is that TB fans should get their preference in all games including with a TB option in RTwP games, but when RTwP fans ask for the same thing we're treated with disrespect. TB fans love to talk about how options are always a good thing, but the moment the shoe is on the other foot their tune changes and they tell us RTwP fans to drop dead. That's the main point I was making.

Yes in this game I don't expect such a change to occur at this stage. My expectation is that if this game is a succes, which I very much hope it will be, and you go on to make a second game, then at that time I will definitely launch a campaign for the inclusion of RTwP fans into the game, because the argument that options is always a good thing cuts both ways.

Alinoria
Level 3
Discord Link Steam Link Kickstarter Backer Mayor's Ring (Bronze)
3 months ago (edited)

Hello everyone,

Why, oh why, should there be any kind of adversity between "TB fans" and "RtwP fans" ? Both modes offer different challenges and different gameplays entirely, even trying to assert one as "superior" seems as oblivious as attempting to mesure up two different colors..

As for the topic in itself, I have to agree with Tactical Myzzrym that it is quite an ordeal to implement both modes in a game, and for having tried a few games with both, I have to say that one usually feels more polished and better structured than the other (I suspect the bulkiest one would be the last created), which leads me to think that whichever is chosen by the developping team, it usually makes for a better final product to stick to one (the why being already covered by Myzzrym, I have no more to say on the matter).

I also concurr with Wraith, Pathfinder Kingmaker did leave me an aftertaste of disappointment, and the fact they decide to split their focus in that way do let me dread for the quality of the final game. Then again, I am not saying the previous game was bad, but I do hope they will still have the time and ressources to take in account the feedbacks of the community, so that we may all be pleased to see a good game having a great sequel.


Alinoria

kanisatha
Level 6
3 months ago

Well I also have already said that I appreciate the developer's position in all of this and especially what @Tactical Myzzrym has explained above. My posts are mainly targeted at the TB fans, because they are the ones who:
(1) Launch campaigns in the forums of RTwP games (for example PoE1, PoE2, P:Km, and now most recently P:WotR) demanding that the developer must either change their game to TB or at least include a TB option;
(2) Tell RTwP fans who get upset by (1) that we're wrong for trying to "deny" TB fans the ability to enjoy the game; and
(3) Insist that they, the TB fans, will fully support RTwP fans requesting the same thing from the developers of TB games.

I am merely looking to test if (3) is true or just crap.

But I will say this. I have been a strong supporter of Solasta from the very first moment it came to my attention. I am a backer of this game. I have promoted this game to others at every possible turn and on every forum in which I am active. And I have done all this despite the fact that I find TB combat to be utterly and irredeemably horrible and already know before this game is even released that I will hate the combat parts of this game (which is likely to be a significant proportion of the game and which in turn means I will automatically be denied the same extent of enjoyment from the game that the TB fans will get from it). So why am I such a supporter of this game? It is because TA is just starting out as a new studio intent on making good classic RPGs. I love and mainly only play classic RPGs. So I want to support any new studio that will make such games for me. But this support is a one-shot deal for just the first game. Assuming that first game is reasonably successful, then for subsequent games I fully expect that I should get just as much for my money as any TB fan gets. Now this can be from either a mix of some games being TB and some being RTwP, or all games having both modes. But if all games continue to be only TB, then I as a RTwP fan cannot be expected to support those games any further (and also probably to feel angry and bitter about it because that is human nature).