Pass Without Trace spell ineffective

Redglyph
Level 14
2 years ago (edited)

Version 0.4.15b

I can't see any difference with or without using the Pass Without Trace spell, my party is detected as easily.

There isn't much information on the spell, either, here is the correct description:

Pass without Trace
2nd-level    abjuration
Casting    Time: 1    action
Range: Self
Components: V,    S,    M    (ashes    from    a    burned    leaf    of    
mistletoe and a sprig of spruce)
Duration: Concentration,    up    to    1    hour
A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you,
masking you and your companions from detection.
For the duration, each creature you choose within 30
feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to
Dexterity (Stealth) checks and can’t be tracked
except by magical means. A creature that receives
this bonus leaves behind no tracks or other traces of
its    passage.

Redglyph
Level 14
2 years ago (edited)

This post has been deleted.

Redglyph
Level 14
2 years ago

Has anyone seen the same problem?

Redglyph
Level 14
2 years ago

I suppose not, then. Hard to know with those forums :/

ImpPhil
Level 7
2 years ago (edited)

I've never tried that spell.  I would have to start a new game with a ranger and pick that spell when he/she reaches level 5 in order to check it.  I guess it's not surprising that not many people have tried it so far.  I'll wait until there's a new patch, I have no desire to play through again right now.

Can you check the perception rolls in the log to see if the +10 is being applied?

ImpPhil
Level 7
2 years ago

I managed to test this out.  The spell does have an effect and adds 10 to your DEX(Stealth) ability check when you're attacking an enemy from stealth.  It's only visible in the log and not called out on the popup, so with the spell I get log entries like:

Flambard rolls a DEX(Stealth) ability check against DC 20, rolls 'x' + 17

Where the popup shows +4: Dex, +3: Profiency bonus.  I think it should show +10: Pass without trace also.

Whereas without the spell I'll get: Flambard rolls a DEX(Stealth) ability check against DC 20, rolls 'x' + 7




Redglyph
Level 14
2 years ago

Ok, thanks!


But that's strange, I compared the logs with and without casting Pass Without Trace, and the results were very comparable for the two members I had. I suppose I did something wrong. I'll try again later :)

Redglyph
Level 14
2 years ago (edited)

I see the difference, I haven't read properly. You used stealth on an attack, I only checked the detection. The only check I see is a wisdom (survival) check, by both party members, once they have been detected. And actually, I'm not sure why there is such a check at that moment. If it were only a ranger, in the full D&D setting, I could assume it was to detect whether the dire wolf was preferred enemy, but it's not the case here, and it's also performed by a cleric.

For the detection outside of combat mode, there is no indication of the checks that are made, which makes it very difficult to diagnose, I was hoping to get a reply from the devs regarding that (and the wisdom/survival check), I think only they can tell for sure. I'm also wondering how it works, as I understand, when someone tries to remains hidden, there is a dexterity (stealth) check, but here the detection seems continuous, with the little gauge showing its progression. It means there are more checks than just one.

It's good to know it's working during combat at least, thanks again for checking. Chances are, it's just not easy to compare on detection but it's correct too.

ImpPhil
Level 7
2 years ago (edited)

It appears to me that if you're in stealth mode, and attack a creature, and you're more than 3 cells away, the creature makes a wisdom based perception roll to detect you.  This appears as the DC in the log.  You make a dex(stealth) check to beat the DC.  If you have pass without trace you get +10 (although this isn't called out in the log tooltip), and if you also have Elven boots or enhance ability(cat's grace) you get advantage on your roll.  

If you come within 3 cells then you get detected regardless if you wait long enough, indicated by the gauge.  The gauge fills up slower the better stealth you have (supposedly).

Even then I find that I occasionally get detected at greater than 3 cells with no info in the log except 'you got detected'.  I'm guessing there's a missing perception check in the log.

ImpPhil
Level 7
2 years ago (edited)

As implemented pass without trace allows your ranger to add +10 to stealth to everyone nearby, but then allows them to move as far away as they like, which is quite OP.  I assume the effect should cease if a character moves more than 30ft away from the ranger.

A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks ...

Similarly should other concentration spells like shield of faith only persist while in the specified range of the caster?

Redglyph
Level 14
2 years ago

It appears to me that if you're in stealth mode, and attack a creature, and you're more than 3 cells away, the creature makes a wisdom based perception roll to detect you.  This appears as the DC in the log.  You make a dex(stealth) check to beat the DC.  If you have pass without trace you get +10 (although this isn't called out in the log tooltip), and if you also have Elven boots or enhance ability(cat's grace) you get advantage on your roll.  

If you come within 3 cells then you get detected regardless if you wait long enough, indicated by the gauge.  The gauge fills up slower the better stealth you have (supposedly).

Even then I find that I occasionally get detected at greater than 3 cells with no info in the log except 'you got detected'.  I'm guessing there's a missing perception check in the log.

Outside of combat, only moving stealthily: If there is no reason for the enemy to actively search for a "player", I suppose that every time the positions or circumstances change, the player does a dex(stealth) check = d20+dex and the enemy does a passive wis(perception) check = d10+wis. If the enemy's check beats the player's, he/she has been spotted.

This seems confirmed here: https://olddungeonmaster.com/2014/12/28/dd-5e-stealth-and-hiding/

But that's random and doesn't look like the gauge we see, which is more intuitive and action-oriented. Actually I'm not sure why they've implemented it like this, because it's contrary to the tabletop feeling principle they are following for this game.

In particular, if nobody moves, there is no need to do periodic checks, again this is not what we see with the gauge, and the game is in direct contradiction with the rule.

This seems confirmed here: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/96256/how-often-to-roll-stealth-vs-perception

In any case, there is no trace of this process in the log, so it's very hard to tell whether they correctly use dex+10 or dex.

During combat, it's another matter, of course.

As implemented pass without trace allows your ranger to add +10 to stealth to everyone nearby, but then allows them to move as far away as they like, which is quite OP.  I assume the effect should cease if a character moves more than 30ft away from the ranger.

A veil of shadows and silence radiates from you, masking you and your companions from detection. For the duration, each creature you choose within 30 feet of you (including you) has a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks ...

That's how I understand it too, well spotted!

Similarly should other concentration spells like shield of faith only persist while in the specified range of the caster?

It's not entirely clear in the description, is it? "A shimmering field appears and surrounds a creature of your choice within range, granting it a +2 bonus to AC for the duration". The other spell description was more precise.

Since it doesn't seem to be an instantaneous boost, but rather maintained by concentration, I'd also say the target must remain within range.


ImpPhil
Level 7
2 years ago

However, the description or range in the SRD says: Once a spell is cast, its effects aren’t limited by its range, unless the spell’s description says otherwise. and for example Barkskin is range=touch, but can be cast on another creature. So unless a concentration spell is unambiguous in stating a max operating range from the caster I guess TA's implementation is good.

Redglyph
Level 14
2 years ago (edited)

Well, what do I know. It doesn't seem necessary, you must be right. If we take the description literally, range needn't be maintained after the spell is cast, and concentration has nothing to do with it.

(I tried to format it correctly, but I give up, those forums are beyond any hope)

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-spellcasting

IF YOU’RE CONCENTRATING ON A SPELL, DO YOU NEED TO MAINTAIN LINE OF SIGHT WITH THE SPELL’S TARGET?

You don’t need to be within line of sight or within range to maintain concentration on a spell, unless a spell’s description or other game feature says otherwise.