Level 1 spell (1 slot) cancels all need for rations (Goodberries)

Baraz
Level 12
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2 months ago (edited)

As you may have noticed, casting Goodberries (level 1, once per day while travelling) cancels ANY need for rations.
- If you have either Ranger or a Green Mage. 

Currently, one day of travelling requires only 4 Goodberries. 

It radically changes the travelling experience and inventory weight.

This is why, as a DM, I am not a fan of how Goodberries and Create Food/Water work currently in 5e.  They completely nullify survival systems or need for rations, hunting, etc.  I keep the spells existent, but modify them: they remain very useful, but rations and hunting remain beneficial.  

  • Goodberries (homebrew) : 1 berry is a tiny meal (so you need 3/day to be fully nourished).  
       If you only eat goodberries for days, you will get an indigestion and not feel really sustained or satisfied. 
  • Create Food/Water (replaced, homebrew) : too long to describe here, but it is replaced by a spell that greatly reduces the need for water and food while travelling or being very active physically.  It can affect a whole big party (about 10 people).  The nuance is you cannot last forever without water/food, though the spell (once per day) can make the party last a long time in conditions where most would die from starvation/thirst.  


Nb : also minor bug where you cannot unselect Goodberries in the travelling settings.


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Skryia
Level 8
2 months ago

Cancelling the need for rations is specifically why I put a Ranger (or Druid) in my parties with Goodberry, or would bother to take Create Water/Food on a Cleric. I do not find survival systems or weigh/inventory management in the least bit interesting, so if the rules (or DM discretion) give me a way out I’ll happily take it. If TA wants to add a setting for making rations matter (or nor) I’ll happily click whichever setting gives me a way to ignore it (much like I built a party of all darkvision characters to deal with the ho,brew lighting rules of Solasta). So, if they want to make the impact of rations more meaningful, I’d rather they do it in a way that lets me opt-in/out via setting. If they don’t want to do it via setting, just let goodberries or create food/water cover it like does now and players that enjoy that get to free up a prepared/known spell slot by not bothering to learn/prepare those spells. 

Baraz
Level 12
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2 months ago (edited)

Cancelling the need for rations is specifically why I put a Ranger (or Druid) in my parties with Goodberry, or would bother to take Create Water/Food on a Cleric. I do not find survival systems or weigh/inventory management in the least bit interesting, so if the rules (or DM discretion) give me a way out I’ll happily take it. If TA wants to add a setting for making rations matter (or nor) I’ll happily click whichever setting gives me a way to ignore it (much like I built a party of all darkvision characters to deal with the ho,brew lighting rules of Solasta). So, if they want to make the impact of rations more meaningful, I’d rather they do it in a way that lets me opt-in/out via setting. If they don’t want to do it via setting, just let goodberries or create food/water cover it like does now and players that enjoy that get to free up a prepared/known spell slot by not bothering to learn/prepare those spells. 

I hear you.  It is a good point to consider in the game design. 

But the difference now it too extreme between a player that has a party with the Goodberry spell and one that does not.  The later has to manage a super strict and tedious weight issue and needs to manage to hunt along the way (for the 10 day road), while the other can totally bypass the assured encumbrance of one character carrying 20+ rations for the 10 day trip (would require 40 rations, in theory, if your party fails to hunt/find food). 

With Goodberries, it is a TOTALLY different ball game.  You only need 4 of the 10 berries created by the level 1 spell in a day.  You can totally ignore all rations, except maybe keep 4 just in case. 

Does a new player need to learn this the hard way, realize this, and re-start a new game, ignoring the x hours already invested?  Or should the game design try to find a solution/compromise making both parties, with or without Goodberries, manageable. 


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shout27
Level 7
2 months ago

Cancelling the need for rations is specifically why I put a Ranger (or Druid) in my parties with Goodberry, or would bother to take Create Water/Food on a Cleric. I do not find survival systems or weigh/inventory management in the least bit interesting, so if the rules (or DM discretion) give me a way out I’ll happily take it. If TA wants to add a setting for making rations matter (or nor) I’ll happily click whichever setting gives me a way to ignore it (much like I built a party of all darkvision characters to deal with the ho,brew lighting rules of Solasta). So, if they want to make the impact of rations more meaningful, I’d rather they do it in a way that lets me opt-in/out via setting. If they don’t want to do it via setting, just let goodberries or create food/water cover it like does now and players that enjoy that get to free up a prepared/known spell slot by not bothering to learn/prepare those spells. 

I hear you.  It is a good point to consider in the game design. 

But the difference now it too extreme between a player that has a party with the Goodberry spell and one that does not.  The later has to manage a super strict and tedious weight issue and needs to manage to hunt along the way (for the 10 day road), while the other can totally bypass the assured encumbrance of one character carrying 20+ rations for the 10 day trip (would require 40 rations, in theory, if your party fails to hunt/find food). 

With Goodberries, it is a TOTALLY different ball game.  You only need 4 of the 10 berries created by the level 1 spell in a day.  You can totally ignore all rations, except maybe keep 4 just in case. 

Does a new player need to learn this the hard way, realize this, and re-start a new game, ignoring the x hours already invested?  Or should the game design try to find a solution/compromise making both parties, with or without Goodberries, manageable. 

Ultimately, a player needs to learn to pick and choose what they value, especially given how rations in game are both 4x as expensive and a lb heavier per day than srd.

This is honestly part of the reason I consider greenmages as being the hands down most powerful mage available. a single L1 slot gets the entire party past the need to even carry rations, say what you will about the loremaster and shock arcanist, but if it comes down to a 20 day trek through the badlands they're much more likely to starve.

Skryia
Level 8
2 months ago

For me shock arcanist just appeals to me too much to pass up, though I‘m sure I’ll try out green mage at some point (the loremaster just looks thoroughly underwhelming to me). But a Lowlife Ranger seems to  easily covers for Rogue in my mind, and that gets you hunting plus good berry (I carry 8 rations just to be safe!). But if they gave me a way to make food not matter without specifically working good berry into my party, I’d just take that and not dedicate a class slot to “magical food caster”. I do agree the game should call out the food management minigame  better, though I’m not clear precisely how it could do that. Because if I ever found myself stuck not able to rest because of no food, with no way to obtain more food (magical or otherwise), I’d probably just move on to another game in my backlog rather than start a new game. Other people may very well like the “realism” of food management, and it’s fine by me if they have a meaningful option here, but I personally do not care for it.

cbarrett24
Level 1
2 months ago

Pre patch my group was starving all the time, I had to buy up all the food I could get and it wasnt enough. Post patch I'm just dropping every single ration my party forages up, I dont need any of them.  A little balance is needed for this food mechanic.

silverblade
Level 7
2 months ago

I’m not following the problem. Your problem is Goodberries work as intended?

SheckyS
Level 4
2 months ago (edited)

The current ration system has serious problems, in an of itself, though.
I'm on my first play-through, and I am in the undead castle thingie looking for the first diamond. And up until now, rations have been clogging up my inventory with so much extra weight that I wasn't paying any attention to them at all. I just assumed I had way more than enough. Not so... I just tried to take a long rest and it turns out I only have 2 rations left. So now I am completely screwed. I am a zillion miles from anywhere and I can't get more, so I can't rest. Not even sure if I can get home without starving, or whatever happens. This came out of nowhere and I was totally unprepared for it, so it feels like I got ambushed hard. :(

The game needs to explain how rations work in a much better way and prepare the player for the consequences. A lot more emphasis needs to be placed on the importance of rations so the player has some kind of warning. :)

Steve
Level 6
2 months ago

I think the real problem is that rations are too heavy.  If they lowered the weight, it would be much less of problem for non-ranger parties to carry enough rations.  

I don't think they should alter or remove Goodberries or Create Food spells.  Sure, having those spells makes traveling easier but that's kinda a key part of the ranger's whole identity.  Better Survival / travel time in the wilderness is one of the reasons to play a Ranger.  It's not much different from a Wizard who learns the Knock spell and makes lockpicking much less of a problem or has Light and Sparkle spells to make darkness less of a problem.  Or having a Life Cleric means less need for resting because you have more / better healing.  

When you build a party you are making choices about what part of the game you want to be easier and which parts you might struggle more with.  Every party will have some things they do very well and some areas where they are weaker.  I think having either a Ranger or Cleric in your party is something most people will likely do anyway and if you really want a party without either a cleric or ranger that will make traveling a little harder but most likely will make some other part of they game easier because of whatever classes you are including instead.

Skryia
Level 8
2 months ago

I agree with Steve here 100%! Thanks for putting that so clearly. 👍

Baraz
Level 12
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2 months ago

I agree with the weight issue, but having the Goodberries spell does not just make travelling easier: it makes for a radically different system and experience.  Not just harder or easier.  You can utterly IGNORE ALL Rations, period.  In one case, you could starve. In the other, you will NEVER risk lacking food and you can TOTALLY free your inventory from any Ration whatsoever. 

BUT I agree with you that a SIMPLER solution is to change the weight of Rations. 

Though I still feel the core WotC design for Goodberries is an issue. What I wrote above also applies to a tabletop game. 


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Skryia
Level 8
2 months ago

Agreed. Goodberry allows one to ignore rations and free your inventory. This is a feature, not a bug, IMO. If you like  survival logistics to mean something in your campaign don’t the spell (as a player) or make it clear in session zero that survival logistics will be important to your campaign (as a DM) and you can even forbid Goodberry/Create Food/Create Water for the campaign if you like, because it won’t affect me as I’ll be nope-ing out of that campaign immediately. I’d be more likely to tolerate not being able to hand-wave away rations in Solasta if they were cheaper and didn’t weigh so much. But as it stands now, “take a class with Goodberry if you don’t wanna bother with rations” or “buy rations and ignore Goodberry if you like that extra detail” is a workable compromise (a difficulty setting would be even better).

silverblade
Level 7
2 months ago

Seems to me the problem isn’t Goodberries but the lack of rations you can purchase or find. Rations and other basic supplies/crafting materials really should be unlimited at vendors. 

Skryia
Level 8
2 months ago

The weight and expense of the rations also contributes to the un-fun-ness of the survival mechanic, as pointed out earlier in the thread. If all they do is make more rations available at the vendors with the current weight and cost, it’ll do nothing to change the “Goodberries is the most impactful spell in the game” situation that some of us like and others appear to dislike.

Johannes
Level 10
2 months ago

I agree that this is a problem, but this is how D&D has always been. D&D is not a survival game where you have to constantly manage your resources and take risks to gather new ones. Once you are past the lower levels (from 6th level onwards), traveling problems like extreme weather hazards, nourishment, and shelter become trivial thanks to spells and magic items. Additionally, even desasters like avalanches, earthquakes, tornadoes etc. can be (partially) avoided thanks to saving throws. You are a fantasy superhero in this game

That being said, I also support lowering the weight of rations in this game. Or give us a better chance of picking up food on the way, even without a ranger.


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TomReneth
Level 9
1 month ago

I wouldn't mind an updated system that makes for more interactive travelling (like letting us hunt, meaning fight monsters etc), but i honestly prefer having an opt out choice for the current one. It's just rolling dice and hoarding rations, both of which can be unfun. Especially considering their current weight.

If hunting for food included getting to fight monsters, I'd be happier with it. Or orcs etc to take their rations.


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