Humans are too weak compared to other races

Galadan
Level 7
Newsletter Link Kickstarter Backer
3 months ago

I have played in a table-top campaign with one 'munchkin' and it was unpleasant - everyone was role-playing and managing fine, with their less than 'optimal' characters, but said person was always optimzing, looking for a way to multiclass in a certain way to be 'the best' (at everything seemingly) and our DM simply disallowed certain paths...wow, did that cause a reaction.  They then tried the same in my campaign  - I mostly allowed them to do as they wished...but they became 'swollen with power and arrogance' and met an untimely demise, believing that they were somehow smarter than an ancient vampire lord.  Balance was restored to the universe. I have tried all the races, and had no issues with getting any of them to do what they should be doing, or finding the going overly tough  for any one race - most problem were caused by bugs, or the RNG going against them. Bugs will be addressed with time. I fully accept that the devs have tow ork within the confines of the SRD and I am happy with that - I have enjoyed the EA immensely, and I'ms ure I wil enjoy it more once the bugs are ironed out.


Well said, good post!

(In any campaign, a player that plays against the "spirit/atmosphere/theme etc." that the DM and majority of the players are trying to create could potentially become an issue.)

The DM/Developers state what type of campaign they plan to run (usually but not always after consultation with their players (n tabletop at least)) and the players choose to participate, tacitly approving the type of campaign, to then go and deliberately play a role/type of character that counteracts/ruins the type of campaign is very poor form, nothing an ancient vampire lord (and a gentle conversation afterwards) cannot solve! :)


Cheers



Miles to go before I sleep

Korzald
Level 4
3 months ago

Solasta human-+1 to all abilities. Humans have low-light vision and can see in dim light as if they had full light. But are blind in full dark. 

Lighting rules are moved back to RAW. 

Two birds one stone. 

3 months ago (edited)

Any changes to a single race should not include modifications to a core system (Lighting). It's possible to leave Humans with Normal Vision while improving them; Island Halflings are in the same boat vision-wise yet don't have the same low power issue as Humans.

With the background on Human origins in SOLASTA, it shouldn't be hard to make an updated version that puts them on par with other races. This is a(nother) case where the developers should make their own home brew version instead of copying the source directly.

dunehunter
Level 5
3 months ago


Nope you are not majority.


Your opinion is noted, I would be most interested in any data you had on that.

Cheers 

Apparently you cannot count.

Galadan
Level 7
Newsletter Link Kickstarter Backer
3 months ago


Nope you are not majority.


Your opinion is noted, I would be most interested in any data you had on that.

Cheers 

Apparently you cannot count.


I would be interested in any data you can provide, until then, your opinion is noted.


Cheers



Miles to go before I sleep

the_glimpse
Level 10
3 months ago

Dunehunter would you like to elaborate on what you're saying? You're not adding anything meaningful to the conversation with one line replies and snide comments.


-Glimpse

dunehunter
Level 5
3 months ago

Dunehunter would you like to elaborate on what you're saying? You're not adding anything meaningful to the conversation with one line replies and snide comments.

You and Galadan are the only two here saying Human is not weak, we are talking about how it feels in the game, not about how many humans are played in TTRPG, we don't care how many are played there. They feel underwelming because how Solasta handles dim light, clear?

Baraz
Level 12
Steam Link Newsletter Link Kickstarter Backer Weaponsmith (Bronze)
3 months ago


That's the official Variant human that's not part of the SRD (so it requires a full D&D license to use.) The human currently in the game is the basic human from the SRD. The Devs have to tread carefully with their homebrew to not replicate existing non-SRD content so closely it constitutes infringement. The free feat at 1st level is probably the most-defining feature of the Variant Human, so that would be tough to replicate without potential legal trouble.

Sad to hear that.  Wish it was SRD.  But still, they can tweak it homebrew style. 


Steam profile : https://steamcommunity.com/id/baraz/

3 months ago (edited)

Dunehunter would you like to elaborate on what you're saying? You're not adding anything meaningful to the conversation with one line replies and snide comments.

You and Galadan are the only two here saying Human is not weak, we are talking about how it feels in the game, not about how many humans are played in TTRPG, we don't care how many are played there. They feel underwelming because how Solasta handles dim light, clear?


I don't think lighting has anything to do with Humans being weak, honestly. Even if SOLASTA was like every other CRPG and Lighting didn't matter, Humans would still be significantly weaker than everyone else.

It's not the normal vision that makes them weak (Island Halflings are perfectly fine), it is that +1 to all stats as their special ability is incredibly underwhelming when compared to all the other races. Ironically, this is also the case in table-top which is why nobody is going to play a Human without taking the Variant option there either.

Again, buffing/nerfing a race shouldn't come at the expense of changing a core mechanic. Modify the race first, then analyze again and see whether more needs to be done.

Stabbey
Level 8
Kickstarter Backer
3 months ago


I don't think lighting has anything to do with Humans being weak, honestly. Even if SOLASTA was like every other CRPG and Lighting didn't matter, Humans would still be significantly weaker than everyone else.

It's not the normal vision that makes them weak (Island Halflings are perfectly fine), it is that +1 to all stats as their special ability is incredibly underwhelming when compared to all the other races. Ironically, this is also the case in table-top which is why nobody is going to play a Human without taking the Variant option there either.

Again, buffing/nerfing a race shouldn't come at the expense of changing a core mechanic. Modify the race first, then analyze again and see whether more needs to be done.

I agree with this. Given that humans are otherworldly in this setting, I think giving them some unique racial features - such as a choice between different specializations would be good. It doesn't have to be a strange power which real-life humans don't have, but some game mechanic which allows them some flexibility in which specialization to choose.

Trazzm
Level 8
Steam Link Newsletter Link Kickstarter Backer Armorsmith (Gold)
3 months ago

I hope they listen to this feedback. I pushed for a better human implementation long before EA and they weren't receptive then. They need to give the human some love to make it more desirable and not just suck, to put it bluntly.

exsonic01
Level 9
3 months ago (edited)

The best answer to this problem is, let's ask TA to make Solasta a modding friendly game. I'm not talking about the modding tool. Solasta is a Unity game, so modding is possible without a modding tool, if devs make the source code easy to recognize and moddable. 

Then, everyone can happy. D&D ruleset royalists and D&D traditionalists will be happy about basic SRD rules and races. People who wish to enjoy "power-up humies" or "super humies" will make a mod or wait for such mod. We cannot mod the variant human subrace due to the limit of license and copyright issue. But, if Solasta is moddable and modding friendly, someone can mod different versions of variant human subrace or any other homebrew human subrace. 


PS) Honestly, I think the basic human is still playable in this game. 

1) Default humans are mechanically weaker than the other races.

2) Point 1 is material enough that there is no reason to play default humans.

3) Due to points 1 and 2 default humans are not played.

Yes, the basic human is relatively weaker than some other races in this game. But, I don't mind if they are weaker than other races or not and I'm not interested to compare humans to others. I play basic humans in Solasta now for my own fun. I used GOT characters in Solasta, so for that reason, I made basic human characters, and I like challenging games. These can be a good reason to play default humans for me. To me, "my own enjoyable" is more important because it is my freedom of choice and it is a single play the only game, not a competitive MP game. Different people can have different ideas. Nothing wrong with your idea or my idea. But you also need to respect the idea of players who don't agree with you, right? 

First, you can pump up the stat by the roll or by free edit. Then, the basic human suddenly becomes a superman. 

Second, even with a limited stat purchase, they are still playable. It is not like basic humans are totally unplayable and the game is totally broken. I'm enjoying a 4-human-only all-fighter party now in Solasta. All 16 16 16 9 9 9 boys. Basic humans are really doable. I'm at level 5, never had a dangerous moment so far. Not easy, but not that tough. Frankly, this is my 4th party now, and so far I think half of my party was humans. 

But, I respect your wish and opinion about "stronger human" so, I think the best solution would be modding. I will oppose with my all heart if devs will attempt to remove or modify basic human. 

Palas
Level 1
3 months ago

Well, after DnD 3.5 i went with Pathfinder for my pnp group. I like to play humans in general, even in systems where humans are weaker compared to other races. But you can't compare pnp with solo computer rpg's. 

For my personal taste standard humans in DnD5 are mechanically a bit boring and  seem less skilled than 3.5 or pathfinder. The human variant seem a bit more interesting. I hopet his make it's way in the main game, since it is foundin the srd.

https://www.5esrd.com/races/human/

I am playing solasta with 4 woodelves, paladin, ranger, rouge and wizard. All trained in athletics und darkvision, yeah.



Why choose something ohther than (half)elves?

TomReneth
Level 9
3 months ago

My understanding is that, while standard human isn't too weak in your typical D&D tabletop game, there are specific mechanical changes to Solasta that emphasizes their lack of perks outside of a generic +1 stat bonus. Specifically the rather brutal changes to the lighting mechanics, which is punishing to anyone without any form of lowlight vision. Disadvantage on attack rolls in dim light is pretty harsh and disproportionally punishes humans and halflings. And at least the halfling has some alright perks besides their stats, like Brave and Lucky.

Are there ways to counter say lighting mechanics? Yes. Toss a Light cantrip on your human. This just negates any realistic chance of being useful for stealth. So it can be a pretty bad trade for classes like Rogue and Ranger.

A human ranger or paladin having comparable ability scores to a sylvan elf or half-elf in their respective favored classes still leaves them notably less useful if they routinely have to deal with having disadvantage where the elves don't have to. This is even ignoring the other features said elves get, like advantage on certain Wisdom saves, bonus skills and so on.

 So what could be done about this? Reverting the lighting mechanics to a more typical D&D would work, but would also be the least interesting of the options. I'd say that giving humans a selection of different bonus perks would be the best option. Maybe something like this:

Human:
+1 to all ability scores
+1 language
Pick +1 of: Any proficiency (skill, tool, armor, weapon, save etc.), a skill expertise (picked from background or class skills), cantrip + 1st lvl spell from Wizard or Cleric, +1 to any ability score (on top of the +1 to all), etc.

There are plenty of things that can be done without going away from the fundamental "humans are adaptable" approach. Would this make humans notably more useful than they are now? Yes. Do they need this bonus in your typical tabletop game? Probably not, though I don't think it would upset the balance much. 


Typos happen. More so on the phone.

Saltykrug
Level 4
2 months ago

Respect your opinion but I fully disagree with it.  If lighting is your biggest issue, take the Light cantrip on any caster and cast the Light spell onto your human toon's weapon if it is a martial class.  In fact, that's how I deal with lighting for the ranged in this game.  If your melee is close in, their lit weapons will illuminate the target for a ranger or caster to be able to attack them from range w/o disadvantage.