Humans are too weak compared to other races

Kalshane
Level 7
Kickstarter Backer
5 months ago

I know the Devs are reluctant to do human "subraces" due to unpleasant connotations and the Variant Human is not in the SRD. However, the SRD human is very weak compared to the other races and the lighting changes in Solasta actually make it worse.

I'm perfectly good with the idea of light and darkness being important in Solasta (both thematically and mechanically) but right now the Dim Light=Disadvantage actually makes humans even worse than they are RAW.

I'm fine with Darkvision not actually working in full darkness (though it should probably be renamed Low-Light Vision so it's easier for people to grok and the description on the character creation pages should be updated) but dim light should not affect attack rolls. Otherwise you have to work twice as hard to make a human be able to be effective in combat (to get to bright light) as you do for the races with darkvision (since they bump dim up to bright.) Which seems counter to the Devs stated intentions for reworking light and darkness in the first place.

If everyone needs light to see at all (and dim light only imposes penalties to detect things) and having darkvision simply bumps dim light to bright light, it would mean the other races are only slightly better than humans, rather than still clearly superior.

The human also needs something mechanically to give people a reason to pick it. The default +1 to all stats doesn't really cut it. 

My suggestion would be to remove the basic SRD human and replace it with a fully homebrewed human.

Maybe +2/+2 to the abilities of your choice (which would make it stand out against the +2/+1 the other races get) two skills, a tool and a language. That would at least put it close to the half-elf (even though you're still missing the darkvision and immunity to sleep). If that's not quite enough, maybe free expertise on a skill as well?

Riggs
Level 3
5 months ago

in pnp Humans got a feat at level 1 and more skill points (or in this case an extra proficiency say)

Otherwise they are significantly less powerful than any non-human races.


Ilxuss
Level 5
5 months ago

If it was me I'd slap an extra feat on the current human and I'd see what happens - since we have early access it would be a good place to do some testing. I'd also add a feat that gives extra skill proficiencies to the current list (2 or 3 per feat) but that'd be independent of a human.

Kalshane
Level 7
Kickstarter Backer
5 months ago

in pnp Humans got a feat at level 1 and more skill points (or in this case an extra proficiency say)

Otherwise they are significantly less powerful than any non-human races.


That's the official Variant human that's not part of the SRD (so it requires a full D&D license to use.) The human currently in the game is the basic human from the SRD. The Devs have to tread carefully with their homebrew to not replicate existing non-SRD content so closely it constitutes infringement. The free feat at 1st level is probably the most-defining feature of the Variant Human, so that would be tough to replicate without potential legal trouble.

the_glimpse
Level 10
5 months ago

Not only that but the Variant Human is an option rule the DM doesn't have to use. I don't allow it at my tables because I don't allow Feats, which are horribly unbalanced.

+1 in every attribute is insanely powerful. It's why humans are the most played race in D&D.


-Glimpse

Galadan
Level 7
Newsletter Link Kickstarter Backer
5 months ago

Not only that but the Variant Human is an option rule the DM doesn't have to use. I don't allow it at my tables because I don't allow Feats, which are horribly unbalanced.

+1 in every attribute is insanely powerful. It's why humans are the most played race in D&D.

While I do not agree about the feats, I like the variety they add, it cannot be denied that some do seem overly powerful in D&D 5e, in Solasta currently, not so much.

I wholeheartedly agree about default humans!!! Well Said!!

Cheers


Miles to go before I sleep

Ilxuss
Level 5
5 months ago (edited)

 It's why humans are the most played race in D&D.

I think it's the most played race because we are human and it's easiest for us to identify with the human heroes. Probably followed by elves and half-elves - you look like a handsome human and live much longer.

While feats may be powerful in general I don't think this is the case in Solasta - where humans also get the short end of the stick in darkvision changes and the prevalence of darkness. 

Also, I don't think that adding extra feat to the base class as it is (with 6 attribute points) would count as copying variant humans, so it should be ok on the legal front.

Is +1 insanely powerful? I don't think so, it essentially doesn't "work" on even scored tertiary attributes - after adding one point they'll gain nothing, (almost) no one will invest in them further and they'll forever stay at the odd value and contribute nothing. And if one does decide to bring those to even value it will just make character suck a little less at something they aren't good at and won't use anyway (instead of picking something that will make them do better in what they do well). And if we assume there are 3 equally important, primary attributes (which I don't think is always the case) you'll get 3 points of value from 3x(+1) when other races also get 3 points of value but in form of (+1)+(+2).

Additionally, with the point-buy system, it's tough to make a split that will make you profit from all 6 points (if it's possible, my attempts show that at least 1 point goes to waste) - and with the standard array system (that doesn't involve rolling dice) 4 values are even so those +1's go unutilized at least until you increase those scores. I consider rolling kind of cheating (I think the game is balanced around other two systems) but if we don't try to play the system it still isn't that incredible unless you get lucky and roll all-odd values (with exception of highest rolls for primary stats).

the_glimpse
Level 10
5 months ago

While it doesn't have much of an effect in Solasta most MAD characters are human because they get those extra points.

Now when Tasha's comes out then things may change. Not for Solasta, but for tabletop.

Regardless, humans are fine in Solasta and to say they're weaker than the other races is at best, silly.


-Glimpse

Galadan
Level 7
Newsletter Link Kickstarter Backer
5 months ago

 It's why humans are the most played race in D&D.

I think it's the most played race because we are human and it's easiest for us to identify with the human heroes. Probably followed by elves and half-elves - you look like a handsome human and live much longer.


Your thoughts on why humans are the most played are noted, and possibly true, but speculation.

All we know for certain is that they are the most played, if their perceived mechanical disadvantage was SO GREAT, they would not be the most played.


Cheers


Miles to go before I sleep

5 months ago

Give humans a special racial ability that fits their origin as other planar beings (seeing how Humans aren't even from this world to begin with). Make it something that puts them on par with every other race in the game, since they're easily the worst regardless of no Dark Vision; I would rather pick a Halfling before a Human at the moment. They don't need changes to the Lighting system, but they do need a bonus (homebrew it) so it feels like they provide something that other races do not.

goumindong
Level 8
5 months ago

Humans are the most selected option because people pick the variant option in order to get access to some of the more defining feats at level 1.


I don’t think I have ever seen a non-variant human made or played

Kalshane
Level 7
Kickstarter Backer
5 months ago (edited)

While it doesn't have much of an effect in Solasta most MAD characters are human because they get those extra points.

Now when Tasha's comes out then things may change. Not for Solasta, but for tabletop.

Regardless, humans are fine in Solasta and to say they're weaker than the other races is at best, silly.

Silly?

Basic Human Paladin (Point Buy)

Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 16, one extra language

Half-Elf Paladin (Point Buy)

Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 16, one extra language, 2 bonus skills, darkvision and Fey Ancestry

Yeah, that one extra point of Wisdom that does absolutely nothing is definitely worth more than all that stuff the half-elf gets.

Granted, that was an extreme example, but let's look at another.

Basic Human Ranger (Point Buy)

Str 14, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10, one extra language

Wood Elf Ranger (Point Buy)

Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10, one extra language (elven), darkvision, fey ancestry, mask of the wild, trance.

So the human is slightly stronger (though most Rangers are Dex-based) but otherwise has the same stats and none of the extra benefits the elf has.

The standard human is demonstrably weaker. By a lot.

(Edited to fix a math error in the elf point buy. Also removed mention of elven weapon training since all rangers have proficiency in those weapons by default.)

goumindong
Level 8
5 months ago

Strength based rangers are life. But the elven version is still better

Kalshane
Level 7
Kickstarter Backer
5 months ago

The only thing basic human has going for it is that it has no "good" or "bad" classes. It's better than a sub-optimal race/class combo (like Hill Dwarf wizard and even that advantage is gone by 12th level when both characters will have a 20 Intelligence) and worse than an optimal race/class combo.

Kalshane
Level 7
Kickstarter Backer
5 months ago

Even if you build against type (say a Strength-based elven ranger) the end result isn't that bad.

Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 10.

The human has a 16 Strength instead of 14, which is nice, but only a +5% on relevant rolls and doesn't have the racial perks of the elf.

goumindong
Level 8
5 months ago

Elven ranger should have 15 str. They would get a 1str feat at 4 or a 1 wisdom feat later