Okay I can accept the argument about multiclassing (although I still would prefer having it in the game). But level cap at 12 is not good enough for me, especially when figuring in that in 5e you don't get much character advancement happening or choices to make at many levels. So many level-ups in Solasta feel anti-climactic and a let-down because you earned all that XPs but nothing meaningful changed about your characters. Most of the feats in the game as well as the archetype abilities/benefits are weak or lame and not particularly useful, and that adds tremendously to that feeling of your characters not having *advanced* in any meaningful way. Spellcasting level-gains are the only ones that seem at least somewhat meaningful.
WotC don't really support D&D after level 14. None of their official adventures go over that level, and there are less than a handful of monsters that can challenge characters of that level.
WotC don't really support D&D after level 14. None of their official adventures go over that level, and there are less than a handful of monsters that can challenge characters of that level.
Most classes are also very inconsistent in their progression after lvl 12. It feels like 15 and above largely fills the same role as "epic" levels did back in 3rd edition. Both in that you basically need demigods to challenge a party and that it is barely supported. And it takes a particular D&D group to make it work, because planning anything for characters above lvl 10 gets increasingly complicated because of all the abilities they get, especially casters.
Ran a lvl 13 two-shot where a group of 5 adventurers were to scale a mountain to a temple to kill a red dragon. They had to go through a kobold mine, a whole load of semi-unkillable golems and the temple itself, which had both mortal and celestial guardians. They did it without a long rest because they had a Paladin+Rogue+Battlemaster for damage and 2 control+utility casters (Sorc and Wiz). They were capable of simply bypassing a lot of the planned obstacles through their spells. I could've probably done more to prevent that, but that would require me to come up with ways to deal with all their abilities on the fly that wouldn't feel unfair. But if they didn't have the utility casters, they probably wouldn't even have reached the top alive.
So not only is it a lot of work to implement more tiers of spells, but the higher level you get, the harder it is to design appropriately scaled content. This is complicated in large part due to how ridiculous the scaling on caster classes get at these levels compared to martials. The difference in power level between a party with and without support/utility/control casters is immense.
I'm not inherently against having more levels, but I'd rather they spend the time to make more subclasses and story content and so on that implementing higher lvls. 12 is a good cap and is roughly up to where the different classes feel like they were properly playtested for 5th edition.
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
My players insisted that they wanted to level their PCs to 20, so I have been frantically trying to scratch build content for them. They have just hit level 18 and it's been virtually impossible to challenge them since 14. Basically, 5e does not work at high levels.
It would be nice to have a few more feats though, especially a couple of spell-granting ones.
My players insisted that they wanted to level their PCs to 20, so I have been frantically trying to scratch build content for them. They have just hit level 18 and it's been virtually impossible to challenge them since 14. Basically, 5e does not work at high levels.
It would be nice to have a few more feats though, especially a couple of spell-granting ones.
Toss a number of Intellect Devourers at them. Anything with low int will flee in terror.
More feats would be awesome.
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
My players insisted that they wanted to level their PCs to 20, so I have been frantically trying to scratch build content for them. They have just hit level 18 and it's been virtually impossible to challenge them since 14. Basically, 5e does not work at high levels.
It would be nice to have a few more feats though, especially a couple of spell-granting ones.
Toss a number of Intellect Devourers at them. Anything with low int will flee in terror.
More feats would be awesome.
Surprisingly enough for PCs, none of them have particularly low int. And with Wish and divine intervention, even having your brain erased is only a minor setback at that level.
My players insisted that they wanted to level their PCs to 20, so I have been frantically trying to scratch build content for them. They have just hit level 18 and it's been virtually impossible to challenge them since 14. Basically, 5e does not work at high levels.
It would be nice to have a few more feats though, especially a couple of spell-granting ones.
Toss a number of Intellect Devourers at them. Anything with low int will flee in terror.
More feats would be awesome.
Surprisingly enough for PCs, none of them have particularly low int. And with Wish and divine intervention, even having your brain erased is only a minor setback at that level.
I'd focus on having spellcasters with Greater Invisibility+Counterspell, "drain max HP on hit" melee, stuff with auto-grapple on hit, swallow effects... basically scour the books for the most punishing and unfair abilities monsters can have. Or you could make their enemies by building characters yourself, so they have to work against proper teams with loads of abilities themselves. Give your casters and semi-casters Silvery Barbs too, to screw with their saving throws.
But, yeah, high lvl D&D 5e is absurdly poorly balanced. Had a Tiamat encounter a drunken birthday night with lvl 20s. We gave her a weggie and stole her lunch money.
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
Hey @frostyfardragon and @TomReneth, first of all, thank you for engaging with me in a constructive and nice way on my concerns, and not like how some people post these days where all they want to do is attack or mock people who have a different thought. I really appreciate you guys' responses. I myself stopped paying attention to D&D after 3.5e, and am now just beginning to get my D&D feet wet again in 5e.
So then from what you guys are saying, maybe at least up to level 14?
And also, what are your thoughts on my concerns with the feats and archetype abilities we've gotten thus far? I do understand they don't have the full license, and also that creating these things from scratch while ensuring balance is a tough thing to do. But right now, when I play any sort of melee warrior build (including esp. the Fighter class), I don't really have any feats that I see as being useful to add to my character after the first one or two. And adding attribute points instead of feats can go only so far because you cannot raise them above 20. At the same time, for spellcasters, there are many useful feats available. But they are exactly the classes that don't get many opportunities to add a feat. So it all just feels off to me.
I'm with @kanisatha on this one. I have always liked high level play and I'll never apologize for loving my Baldur's Gate 2 demigod
An adventure that starts by rummaging through goblin underpants hoping to find a copper and ends with a character that has become a power in the multiverse is just fun.
Hey @frostyfardragon and @TomReneth, first of all, thank you for engaging with me in a constructive and nice way on my concerns, and not like how some people post these days where all they want to do is attack or mock people who have a different thought. I really appreciate you guys' responses. I myself stopped paying attention to D&D after 3.5e, and am now just beginning to get my D&D feet wet again in 5e.
So then from what you guys are saying, maybe at least up to level 14?
And also, what are your thoughts on my concerns with the feats and archetype abilities we've gotten thus far? I do understand they don't have the full license, and also that creating these things from scratch while ensuring balance is a tough thing to do. But right now, when I play any sort of melee warrior build (including esp. the Fighter class), I don't really have any feats that I see as being useful to add to my character after the first one or two. And adding attribute points instead of feats can go only so far because you cannot raise them above 20. At the same time, for spellcasters, there are many useful feats available. But they are exactly the classes that don't get many opportunities to add a feat. So it all just feels off to me.
You could go up to level 14, but it's diminishing returns, with the main issue coming up with suitable content for god-like heroes. You open the door and see six Thanos.
I would rather see the three missing classes added before any level cap rises.
As for feats, theoretically they are an optional rule in 5e, so a character without them shouldn't be underpowered. In practice, martial characters need all the help they can get to compete with casters, but even with the OP WotC feats like Great Weapon Master fighters are still falling well behind.
I'm with @kanisatha on this one. I have always liked high level play and I'll never apologize for loving my Baldur's Gate 2 demigod
An adventure that starts by rummaging through goblin underpants hoping to find a copper and ends with a character that has become a power in the multiverse is just fun.
The trouble is, Baldur's Gate 2 used 2nd edition rules, and a 15th level 5e character is more like a 30th level 2nd edition character. They left demigods in the dust levels ago and are now beating up six Supreme Beings before breakfast.
I'm with @kanisatha on this one. I have always liked high level play and I'll never apologize for loving my Baldur's Gate 2 demigod
An adventure that starts by rummaging through goblin underpants hoping to find a copper and ends with a character that has become a power in the multiverse is just fun.
Baldur's Gate 1&2 is a very particular story, using an old system that is not directly comparable to 5e. Even then, BG2 normally has a <3mil cap, which leaves most characters between lvl 17 and 23. 3mil was the norm cap for high levels in early D&D, going by the old exp charts I've seen. Throne of Bhaal raised the cap to 8 mil. Seeing as 2e had a lot more varied progression, a lot of classes at <3mil exp will have far fewer abilities than a lvl 12 5e character. If anything, a lvl 12 5e character will have more abilities than a lot of >3mil exp characters in 2e. That requires a lot of design space, since every ability has to be coded to work.
There's nothing inherently wrong with high levels, but there is a cost to making it and the D&D system doesn't make it easy on the designer. If you've played some areas in BG2 with support casters (like Aerie, Viconia, Jan and Haer'Dalis) versus not having them, you'll know how big a difference that makes. BG2 is very clearly designed with the idea that "you'll need casters, suck it up" in mind. You can do without, but that's usually only possible by knowing what's coming ahead of time and you have to get very lucky on your saving throws.
After a certain point, martial classes just kinda stop scaling efficiency, while casters skyrocket ahead. This means you somehow have to make content that is possible for martials to be relevant in without being dependent on casters, while also making it hard enough so that casters don't trivialize things. Which is hard enough in Solasta as it is and we have only the most basic spell selection available.
If we add 7th lvl spells (lvl 13), that alone will give us access to Conjure Celestial, Forcecage, Ressurection, Plane Shift, Teleport, Simalacrum and Symbol, as well as a few others, just in the Basic Rules. These are spells that could impose some real problems when designing encounters. There is also the matter of scaling.
Higher levels favors casters. Among martials, it is Paladins, Rangers and the 3rd casters (Spellblade & Shadowcaster in Solasta. Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster in tabletop) that gain the most, by getting access to 4th and 3rd lvl spells respectively. And non-casters get... cricket noises ... something I am sure. Rogues get +1d6 damage per turn, while Rangers get the option to conjure other creatures to cast spells for them or use Stoneskin, and wizards can start jumping between planes of existance. 7th lvl spells really are problematic for game design and, IMO, best avoided. Can you imagine the main story of Solasta and then find out wizards can just Plane Shift?
There is also the matter of actually spending the development time for this compared to something else. They could spend time implementing higher levels, but it seems to me that it is a much better return on investment to focus on making more content for the levels we already have. I'd rather see more story campaigns, more feats, more subclasses and so on, because those will likely add more replay value than increasing the level cap will.
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
I'm with @kanisatha on this one. I have always liked high level play and I'll never apologize for loving my Baldur's Gate 2 demigod
An adventure that starts by rummaging through goblin underpants hoping to find a copper and ends with a character that has become a power in the multiverse is just fun.
The trouble is, Baldur's Gate 2 used 2nd edition rules, and a 15th level 5e character is more like a 30th level 2nd edition character. They left demigods in the dust levels ago and are now beating up six Supreme Beings before breakfast.
Strahd von Zarovich - Monsters - D&D Beyond (dndbeyond.com)
This is the monster stat block for an enemy meant to be a challenge for a party at lvl 10, according to the recommendations of the published adventure. He regenerates HP, summons helpers, teleports, has lair actions and spellcasting, can shapeshift... Now imagine designing encounters for characters to instead go into Ravenloft like this:
Typos happen. More so on the phone.
like others have said a high level meaningful game balanced for all party types is a PITA to make and might only appeal to a small group so where is the motivation. now if solasta makes the dungeon maker easier to use and adds in the mechanics of higher level play for the purposes of a human DMing then it might make sense. it could even be a DLC:
ADVANCED DUNGEON MAKER: $9.99
- new dungeon creation tools
- levels 13-20 for characters added
- more high CR monsters
note: there is no AI for running new high CR monsters, the higher level options require a human DM to control.
yellow flower of courage
I'm with @kanisatha on this one. I have always liked high level play and I'll never apologize for loving my Baldur's Gate 2 demigod
An adventure that starts by rummaging through goblin underpants hoping to find a copper and ends with a character that has become a power in the multiverse is just fun.
The trouble is, Baldur's Gate 2 used 2nd edition rules, and a 15th level 5e character is more like a 30th level 2nd edition character. They left demigods in the dust levels ago and are now beating up six Supreme Beings before breakfast.
Strahd von Zarovich - Monsters - D&D Beyond (dndbeyond.com)
This is the monster stat block for an enemy meant to be a challenge for a party at lvl 10, according to the recommendations of the published adventure. He regenerates HP, summons helpers, teleports, has lair actions and spellcasting, can shapeshift... Now imagine designing encounters for characters to instead go into Ravenloft like this:
A common complaint about Curse of Strahd is Strahd is too easy.