barbarians op

7 months ago

after just playing the new class for a bit, I dont see any point in using paladins or fighters.   You get 3 attacks by level 5 (!) and %50 damage reduction from physical attacks (!).    Yes, its "while raging" but it seems they are always raging to no end, and the DC10 roll is easy. 

I used to play the game thinking that healing was vital... loved the cleric class and stocking up on potions.  But after a while I decided pure offense is the way to go, you cannot "out-heal" the enemy damage output.   Barbarians seems the way to go.   Maybe 3 of them.  ;)

Seems too simple, what am I missing, counter thoughts?

TomReneth
Level 14
7 months ago

Barbarians are a very powerful melee class indeed. Rage and Reckless Attack make them relevant at all levels and that's before we get into subclasses. We even miss out on the 2 best ones from tabletop: Totem Warrior (better tanking) and Zealot (better damage). It is hard for Fighters and especially Rangers to keep up without their own stronger subclasses from tabletop. Paladins get so many other abilities that they are always good.

I haven't had the chance to try lvl 11 and 12 yet, but the Shadow Tamer Ranger looks like it has a potentially great ability, adding another way to attack on the enemy's turn. Marksman Rangers get a ranger attack as a bonus action, so they will play almost identically to a Fighter if they are an archer except that they have spells, giving them quite the edge in Solasta since Fighters don't have good archetypes for archery. Rangers also benefit from the homebrew to Favored Enemy, increasing their damage substantially. A Shadow Tamer can add as much as +8 damage on every attack under the right circumstances without using any resources.


Moving back on topic, Barbarians have a couple of notable weaknesses;

1) They are HP tanks
2) They are susceptible to magical damage and crowd control
3) Reckless Attack is a double edged sword

Barbarians can take an astounding amount of physical damage, but they still take full magic and poison damage, which is what will separate a Barbarian from something like a Mountaineer, who will try to avoid taking damage to begin with and have more feats to pick up stuff like Wisdom saving throws. A single round of crowd control can also be enough to knock the Barbarian out of Rage, which will drop their defenses long enough for the enemy to kill them.

Their primary offensive ability, Reckless Attack, is incredibly powerful since it is advantage on demand, but you also give advantage to enemy melee attacks. This means you will sustain more hits and crits, which means you might take more damage that your Rage can prevent. The more powerful the enemy, the riskier this ability becomes. There's a fight around lvl 5-6 where I would avoid using Reckless Attack, for example. 


Typos happen. More so on the phone.

Sarak
Visitor
7 months ago

If you are going rage barbain- what feat selection goes well? I tried doing Follow up strike but it doesn't seem to add any attacks with rage.  So before you get 2 strikes- but adding the feat has no effect

7 months ago

Tom, i havent looked into any details, just started playing, but how are Barbarians more open to magic and crowd control than, say a Fighter, Ranger or Paladin?   

Also when you mention HP tank (the 12 hit dice), how is that a DIS-advantage?  I see that as a huge plus and forgot to mention that in my original "they are OP" post.  I'm not arguing, please explain your viewpoint angle.  Thank you.


TomReneth
Level 14
7 months ago

Tom, i havent looked into any details, just started playing, but how are Barbarians more open to magic and crowd control than, say a Fighter, Ranger or Paladin?   

Also when you mention HP tank (the 12 hit dice), how is that a DIS-advantage?  I see that as a huge plus and forgot to mention that in my original "they are OP" post.  I'm not arguing, please explain your viewpoint angle.  Thank you.


Rangers are generally behind after lvl 5, so keep that in mind.

Fighters get bonus feats to use towards abilities they need, on top of eventually getting Indominable, which lets them reroll saves.

Paladins get Aura of Protection, giving them the best saves in the game, on top of having access to the Bless spell themselves. As well as some other goodies, like Heroism. They also have Wisdom save proficiency naturally.

Barbarians don't get either of these abilities and don't have Wisdom saves, making them susceptible to things like Hold Person, Fear etc. Abilities that can disrupt your Rage or otherwise prevent you from having a turn.


When it comes to HP tanking, it is a liability because d12 isn't that much more HP than d10 (+13 HP at lvl 12) and Rage only prevents physical damage. This is particularly brutal against enemies who uses melee attacks, but deal a form of magical damage, taking advantage of your Reckless Attack. Necrotic is the most obvious problem given the lvl 5-6 area of the game. Barbarians tend to have lower AC than Fighters and Paladins, making this particularly scary.

Barbarians are very good, but they have shortfalls that can be exploited. Their TRUE POWER from the tabletop doesn't exactly shine through Solasta either, because we don't have the Great Weapon Master feat to truly take advantage of Reckless Attack.


Typos happen. More so on the phone.

7 months ago

Thank you, I didnt know any of this.   Not a DnD guy obviously.   I thought a wisdom save was a standard thing, now I know, and yes that is a huge dis-advantage.   

Josiah
Level 5
7 months ago

I believe Paladin's are the best melee class in 5e. I would even consider fighters better at level 12 with the 3rd attack.

IXI
Level 14
7 months ago

I believe Paladin's are the best melee class in 5e. I would even consider fighters better at level 12 with the 3rd attack.

i have not checked the details but has solasta deviated from granting 3 attacks at lv 11 for the fighter?


yellow flower of courage

7 months ago (edited)

One thing to consider with barbarians is their effectiveness depends a lot on how you are allocating ability scores. They benefit from all three physical ability score being high, which means they are good with rolled or allocated stats, but less good with point buy.


They can also have difficulty sustaining rage against ranged/flying enemies, and holding aggro is an issue for very tanky builds.


As for what feat to take, I would suggest Rush To Battle and Creed of Maraike. For non-berserkers, follow up strike might be worth considering.


One Solasta-specifc trick with a magebane barbarian is to use friendly fire to trigger their war cry ability.

Steve
Level 8
7 months ago

Barbarians are very fun and I am enjoying my current half orc barbarian game (except for his voice but we only get three choices). However, I think in future games I would switch back to Paladin.  Mainly because we only get a 4 person party and I like to have someone in the group who can use whatever cool new gear we find.  So for me that means a spread or armor types, heavy, medium, light, robes and a mix of weapon styles.  Maybe the Barb can fill the medium / 2H slot if the cleric can pick up heavy armor but usually the cleric is medium armor.  Also, I tend to rely on paladin Lay on Hands for my healing much more than the cleric because clerics have such important spells that I don't want to waste their slots casting heal spells and LoH always heals for exactly the amount you want.  Also, the Paladin is usually the "face" of my group with +Charisma and proficiency in Persuasion, Deception and Intimidation.  It's hard to find anyone else who can fill that role right now except maybe a Sorcerer.  The Barb is very fun and strong but Paladins still have their role.

TomReneth
Level 14
7 months ago

Thank you, I didnt know any of this.   Not a DnD guy obviously.   I thought a wisdom save was a standard thing, now I know, and yes that is a huge dis-advantage.   

It's not really a huge disadvantage. Like I said, Barbarians are very good at what they do, they just aren't a one-size fits all melee character. Use them correctly and they'll tear through the opposition or hold the line forever.


I believe Paladin's are the best melee class in 5e. I would even consider fighters better at level 12 with the 3rd attack.

i have not checked the details but has solasta deviated from granting 3 attacks at lv 11 for the fighter?

The character creator says Fighters get another attack at lvl 11. If they don't get it, that's a bug.

Personally I am very curious about how the Shadow Tamer lvl 11 ability will work, because it can be anything from alright to really good. Haven't had a chance to reach lvl 11 yet on any class and the preview of the ability doesn't say how it actually works mechanically.


Typos happen. More so on the phone.

Baraz
Level 14
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7 months ago

Note that the Path of Stone Barbarians use the Constitution modifier for ALL their Saves at a level 6.
And they have a small HP boost every turn. 

Not as good as a Paladin overall, but ...


Steam profile : https://steamcommunity.com/id/baraz/

7 months ago (edited)

Path of Stone is really tanky, but without any specific aggro gaining abilities, it might just mean it's last man standing.

One thing I noticed, but haven't tested yet, is the Solasta barbarian rage description doesn't specify attacking "with strength", which in theory makes dex barbarians viable. Halfling stoner barb with rapier and shield could be a really strong tank.


Edit: have tested it, and dex barbarian works. Don't know whether to consider this a bug or a feature!

Quesci
Level 6
7 months ago (edited)

The ease of STR boosting magical items like Belt of Giant Strength makes it a bit simpler to allocate stats to a barbarian if you are OK with a bit of metagaming.

Standard Array, Marsh Halfling (+2 DEX, +1 CON)
STR: 13
DEX: 14+2 = 16
CON: 15+1 = 16
INT: 8
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

At level 4 with a Belt of Hill Giant Strength:
STR: 21
DEX: 16
CON: 18
INT: 8
WIS: 12
CHA: 10

Personally, I prefer a paladin over any other melee class. So far the barbarian doesn't bring anything useful to the party that I can't get from a paladin as a tank or a ranger as DPS.